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Hot take, of course, but I think pro-choice ethical vegans and (very) pro-life meat eaters have a more interesting paradox. What interesting thing about a hone
by humanrebar 8y ago
Hot take, of course, but I think pro-choice ethical vegans and (very) pro-life meat eaters have a more interesting paradox.
What interesting thing about a honey bee or fish deserves protection that isn't true of a fairly young human fetus? And, likewise, what's true of a young fetus that does not apply to a pig or octopus on the pro-life side?
There are clearly religious answers to some of the paradox on all sides of things, but I'm sure not all of us find them convincing.
EDIT: There is probably a more acute detachment/skin-in-the-game distinction to be made in this case, if we can suspend our politics for a moment, which might be asking a lot these days, perhaps.
- drcube 8y agoIf a fish were living inside your body, you'd have the right to expel it, too. That has nothing to do with the treatment fish deserve or don't deserve, and everything to do with human bodily autonomy.
- humanrebar 8y agoI could see a libertarian principle, but most pro-choice people aren't exactly against seatbelt laws or opting out of national health services. So this is a principle, but generally a selectively applied one. Which was my point. EDIT: What part of this is getting downvotes? I'm honestly curious for a distinction here.
- AnimalMuppet 8y agoExpel a fish? Sure. Expel a fish even if it kills the fish? Still, sure. Expel a human even if it kills the human? That's a tougher sell. And that's always been the problem. Yell as much as you want about "a woman's right to her own body", but there's something there besides her body, something that is 1) still genetically human, 2) genetically different from the mother, and 3) will die if expelled by the methods used. It's not just the woman's body. I think of it in terms of the Declaration of Independence: "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". Well here, "life" is at war with "liberty and the pursuit of happiness" in a way where, whichever one wins, the other has to lose.
- drcube 8y agoIf a homeless person was living in your home, even if you invited him there in the first place, you still have every right to kick him out of your home if you decide you don't want him there anymore. Even if it's winter, and he'll die of starvation or freeze out on the streets without your hospitality. It may be a cruel and heartless thing to do, but it's perfectly legal, and should remain so. I believe we should have at least as much autonomy over our own bodies as over our real estate.
- AnimalMuppet 8y agoAll right, what if the only way you can get the homeless person to leave is to murder him and then remove the body? Do your real estate rights give you the right to do that? Because, bluntly, that's the way abortion (almost always) works - you kill the fetus and then remove it, or at least kill it in the process of removing it.
- detcader 8y agoIn my experience vegans and vegetarians generally don't think any killing of suffering beings is automatically wrong, we think killing them when alternatives exist is wrong...
- chongli 8y agoAnd in the case that mother and fetus are healthy, there are at least two alternatives to abortion.
- umvi 8y agoAdoption and...? Sorry, I'm drawing a blank on what the second alternative would be.
- mycorrhizal 8y agoNot the OP but I believe the second option would be raising the child.
- detcader 8y agoWell, cool, that's where the disagreement is. If some woman I don't know says there's no alternative, I'm going to believe her because I don't know her.
- SolaceQuantum 8y agoWhat are the alternatives to abortion if the problem is not the child existing but the birthing process? (Serious question. I'm aware birthing has a fairly high chance of permanent damage to the birther, and I was under the impression the abortion isn't to avoid raising a child but to avoid the damage caused by birthing.)
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago>What are the alternatives to abortion. Raise it yourself or put it up for adoption are the first two options that come to mind if the resulting child is the problem. C-section or risk popping it out the normal hole are the obvious alternatives if medical complications are the problem. Personally I don't have a problem with abortion but if you want alternatives then there you are.
- FlowNote 8y agoIf the argument that honey is a product of sentient creatures, then so is dirt. All plants derive from dirt, an animal product of worms. Does this means vegans ought to starve?
- bootlooped 8y agoI think the most common goal of vegan or vegetarian diets is to reduce animal suffering, not to eliminate any part of your life that is even adjacent to animals. As you've pointed out, the latter would be impossible.
- humanrebar 8y agoVeganism is a spectrum. Some are fine with honey, others find it exploitive. The interesting thing to me is the principle that is so important to warrant a conspicuous lifestyle change and how it maps to other issues.
- happytoexplain 8y agoIf sex had a chance to cause a honey bee to grow in one's body over 9 months and resulted in many years of a full commitment of one's life, mind, and resources, I don't think people who respect bees would be hypocritical in killing a bee. Conversely, babies have potential that animals do not, and humans have inherent value to us, both practically and psychologically, that animals do not, so I think it's not hypocritical for somebody who kills pigs to refrain from killing a baby. No offense, seriously, but the analogy seems simplistic to the point where it needs some kind of complete rework to produce an interesting question.
- humanrebar 8y agoSo, barring metaphysical axioms about the intrinsic worth of humanity, we measure worth by utility? The utility answer resolves some of the tension, but it doesn't address what happens when an animal might have more utility than a human. What about protecting endangered rhinos versus viable fetuses with severe but nonterminal developmental issues? Not really a rhetorical question, by the way, the Down's Syndrome population is way down and not because we cured Down's Syndrome.
- daveFNbuck 8y agoI think the conflict would be greater for an anti-choice ethical vegan. You can't force a cow to produce milk, but you can force a woman to incubate a baby?
- humanrebar 8y agoI get the libertarian position. Though we force women to wear seatbelts and wear motorcycle helmets, which is just as much about bodily autonomy.
- daveFNbuck 8y agoI'm not making a libertarian argument. I'm arguing that forcing a woman to go through pregnancy is similar to the things ethical vegans are against doing to animals. I don't think ethical vegans are against using safety equipment when transporting animals.
- humanrebar 8y agoNo, I'm saying we don't respect bodily autonomy generally in the case of seat belt laws, but that is just an example. A women has to put a seat belt on her body whether she wants to or not. That's a government intervention into something less complicated than pregnancy.
- daveFNbuck 8y agoI didn't say anything about bodily autonomy or government intervention. What does that have to do with ethical veganism? I'm only saying that not hurting women by forcing them to carry a fetus to term is consistent with the vegan ethic of not hurting animals.
- humanrebar 8y ago> You can't force a cow to produce milk, but you can force a woman to incubate a baby? reply The use of the word "force" is the key word here. Who is doing the forcing? Who should be making the decisions about what happens to the body? That's the autonomy question.