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Look, I don't even like frameworks. A framework adds incredible amounts of complexity if you're trying to develop for the system, and acts as a single-point-of

Look, I don't even like frameworks. A framework adds incredible amounts of complexity if you're trying to develop for the system, and acts as a single-point-of-failure from a social POV. (That's the issue many people have with systemd on Linux, for example - it addresses a number of issues that probably need to be addressed, but does so in an inevitably hackish way that ends up looking like a big ball of mud. Hopefully it'll eventually reach some degree of maturity and we'll be able to replace it with something that's more decoupled and more geared towards expressing mechanisms, not policies.) What does the Haiku "framework" experience provide that other OS's don't?

pjmlp 8y ago
An integrated developer experience from top to bottom, just like using Kits on macOS/iOS, Frameworks on Android, .NET on Windows. Not something where each computer is a special snowflake with a developer fragmented experience about which libraries are even available on the system, and lack of integrated tooling, forcing the trend of just bundling a web browser with the application. Note that I included "desktop oriented OSes" on the same group as Be. As for systemd, the very fact that Linux is late to the party of commercial UNIXes init replacements says it all, in terms of being a need that a large majority actually wants.
- zozbot123 8y ago
  > Not something where each computer is a special snowflake with a developer fragmented experience about which libraries are even available on the system AIUI, these days you can just develop for Flatpack (if you're making a proprietary application) and declare your dependencies as needed. But do note that Flatpack is not a kitchen-sink "framework" or "platform": it's just something that addresses a number of fairly well-understood issues with the prevailing, mostly FLOSS-oriented, development model. (One reason that the issues are well-understood by now is that other "solutions" have been tried before, such as the LSB effort-- and found wanting.) This is key to decreasing complexity and making the system as a whole more comprehensible and surveyable. The commercial UNIXes you point to are far closer to your view of "each platform being a special snowflake", and big frameworks make this issue worse; they don't ameliorate it.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    Sure the year of GNU/Linux desktop is just around the corner, meanwhile don't complain if your beautiful lack of frameworks only gives you Electron based stuff.

pjmlp 8y ago

An integrated developer experience from top to bottom, just like using Kits on macOS/iOS, Frameworks on Android, .NET on Windows. Not something where each computer is a special snowflake with a developer fragmented experience about which libraries are even available on the system, and lack of integrated tooling, forcing the trend of just bundling a web browser with the application. Note that I included "desktop oriented OSes" on the same group as Be. As for systemd, the very fact that Linux is late to the party of commercial UNIXes init replacements says it all, in terms of being a need that a large majority actually wants.

zozbot123 8y ago
> Not something where each computer is a special snowflake with a developer fragmented experience about which libraries are even available on the system AIUI, these days you can just develop for Flatpack (if you're making a proprietary application) and declare your dependencies as needed. But do note that Flatpack is not a kitchen-sink "framework" or "platform": it's just something that addresses a number of fairly well-understood issues with the prevailing, mostly FLOSS-oriented, development model. (One reason that the issues are well-understood by now is that other "solutions" have been tried before, such as the LSB effort-- and found wanting.) This is key to decreasing complexity and making the system as a whole more comprehensible and surveyable. The commercial UNIXes you point to are far closer to your view of "each platform being a special snowflake", and big frameworks make this issue worse; they don't ameliorate it.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Sure the year of GNU/Linux desktop is just around the corner, meanwhile don't complain if your beautiful lack of frameworks only gives you Electron based stuff.