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We didn't need bootcamps when companies just wanted html and css. Now that there are companies that want a lot more, we need bootcamps that teach that. The bo

We didn't need bootcamps when companies just wanted html and css. Now that there are companies that want a lot more, we need bootcamps that teach that. The bootcamps don't teach the things that you think you can teach someone in a single day? Perhaps it's because those things are so easy they don't waste their time on them. They expect the students to study that stuff on their own. But in the end, none of that matters. "industry entry points" aren't "vanishing". There are still tons of companies that need entry-level html, css, and javascript. We love to talk about all the companies that want more, and those companies pay more, but the other companies haven't dried up.

ndnxhs 8y ago
The first website I built was a static HTML/CSS website for a family members party hire business. And this was only about 5 years ago.
acdha 8y ago
> But in the end, none of that matters. "industry entry points" aren't "vanishing". There are still tons of companies that need entry-level html, css, and javascript. Is this really true? It seems like those entry-level people are caught between two trends: the low-level stuff is going SaaS and a growing percentage of the rest is buying into the idea that you need to install 10k dependencies for a brochure site.
- macspoofing 8y ago
  >Is this really true My answer is 'no'. I think it's hard to make a living as a html/css website builder. You're competing with students, foreign freelancers, Web CMSes (like Wordpress+themes), and Website builder services (like Squarespace) ... all of which can, in one way or the other, undercut you. >you need to install 10k dependencies for a brochure site. You don't need 10k dependencies for a brochure site. Things like Wordpress or Squarespace should be more than enough.
  - acdha 8y ago
    > You don't need 10k dependencies for a brochure site. Things like Wordpress or Squarespace should be more than enough. I agree but say you want to create a simple site for something like a restaurant. You read all of the advice saying to use create-react-app and now you have 37,646 dependencies. That gives you a lot of tools but many of them are there to reduce the downsides to having that much complexity in the first place. It's certainly not a simple good-bad call but I do think it's right to ask about barriers to entry and whether we're entirely comfortable with the trade-offs.
    - macspoofing 8y ago
      I think I agree. You don't need to setup an entire modern javascript build-chain in order to build a simple site, and if that's the advice that they received, it was bad advice. Having said that, 1) HTML/CSS even outside of any JS is complicated, and website builders are probably a better approach, and 2) all those JS-based frameworks are there for building web-applications, not web-sites and therefore geared towards solving programming problems (like how to organize and maintain thousands of lines of code).
  - wccrawford 8y ago
    I was talking about "industry entry points" not "long term careers". Yeah, it's probably harder to have an entire career on html and css unless you're also a really good artist. But for getting your foot into the industry, you've already said it: Plenty of students are doing it.

ndnxhs 8y ago

The first website I built was a static HTML/CSS website for a family members party hire business. And this was only about 5 years ago.

acdha 8y ago

> But in the end, none of that matters. "industry entry points" aren't "vanishing". There are still tons of companies that need entry-level html, css, and javascript. Is this really true? It seems like those entry-level people are caught between two trends: the low-level stuff is going SaaS and a growing percentage of the rest is buying into the idea that you need to install 10k dependencies for a brochure site.

macspoofing 8y ago
>Is this really true My answer is 'no'. I think it's hard to make a living as a html/css website builder. You're competing with students, foreign freelancers, Web CMSes (like Wordpress+themes), and Website builder services (like Squarespace) ... all of which can, in one way or the other, undercut you. >you need to install 10k dependencies for a brochure site. You don't need 10k dependencies for a brochure site. Things like Wordpress or Squarespace should be more than enough.
- acdha 8y ago
  > You don't need 10k dependencies for a brochure site. Things like Wordpress or Squarespace should be more than enough. I agree but say you want to create a simple site for something like a restaurant. You read all of the advice saying to use create-react-app and now you have 37,646 dependencies. That gives you a lot of tools but many of them are there to reduce the downsides to having that much complexity in the first place. It's certainly not a simple good-bad call but I do think it's right to ask about barriers to entry and whether we're entirely comfortable with the trade-offs.
  - macspoofing 8y ago
    I think I agree. You don't need to setup an entire modern javascript build-chain in order to build a simple site, and if that's the advice that they received, it was bad advice. Having said that, 1) HTML/CSS even outside of any JS is complicated, and website builders are probably a better approach, and 2) all those JS-based frameworks are there for building web-applications, not web-sites and therefore geared towards solving programming problems (like how to organize and maintain thousands of lines of code).
- wccrawford 8y ago
  I was talking about "industry entry points" not "long term careers". Yeah, it's probably harder to have an entire career on html and css unless you're also a really good artist. But for getting your foot into the industry, you've already said it: Plenty of students are doing it.