4 ms·

> Sounds like the utopian culture of the protagonists is surrounded by plenty of non-utopian drama. You're not wrong, but the word 'surrounded' is significant.

> Sounds like the utopian culture of the protagonists is surrounded by plenty of non-utopian drama. You're not wrong, but the word 'surrounded' is significant. Star Trek always felt odd to me because the non-utopian elements felt far too embedded in the utopian stuff. Not just the Maquis, where utopia is breaking down, but the constant presence of menacing rival powers and internal hierarchy. What happens if a captain loses their ship? It can't be trivial or the Romulans wouldn't be a threat. What happens if a private citizen asks the fabricator for a submarine instead of a hot dinner? Material/power/something is clearly bounded. And, yes, redshirts - quite a few people in utopia still get killed because no one knows how to keep them safe. What I like so much about the Culture stories is that the drama is around their society. They're not just post-money but largely post-scarcity; one character's hobby is terraforming continents into custom residences, and resource limits don't seem to affect anyone much unless they're dealing with the sorts of energy costs associated with major spacetravel. Even when they go to war, it's from a truly foreign viewpoint. One (no-spoilers) conflict sees the Culture evacuate and destroy a space habitat for several billion people because they don't want to yield it to the enemy, and rebuilding it elsewhere is a minor concern. The other appeal, less obvious from a summary, is seeing what the Culture does worry about. They're not the first post-scarcity civilization, and they're not entirely sure what's happened to the others...

arethuza 8y ago
Don't most of them Sublime? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sublimed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sublimed
- Bartweiss 8y ago
  Yep - "don't know what happened" was a bit overstated, I just wanted to put it simply. "Don't know quite what happens when you Sublime" would be more accurate. I think it might be Excession or even Phlebas that first brings up the idea that the Culture is unusual for reaching such a high level of development without subliming?
  - arethuza 8y ago
    Yes - one of the later novels does mention that other advanced societies do regard the Culture as being a bit immature in their insistence that they won't sublime. Incidentally, Subliming reminds me a bit of the transition from the Beyond to the Transcend in Vinge's Zones of Thought stories.
krapp 8y ago
>Star Trek always felt odd to me because the non-utopian elements felt far too embedded in the utopian stuff. That's because utopias are boring. Gene Roddenberry's vision if actually followed through with would have made for dismal television, so the writers had to back away from it now and then. To me the flawed utopias are more interesting and even more inspiring. I can relate to people having to struggle to uphold their morals in a violent and uncertain universe, but not so much to people who are already perfect. >And, yes, redshirts - quite a few people in utopia still get killed because no one knows how to keep them safe. Despite it being canon that transporter buffers can be used to store a backup of a person's entire pattern and make copies of them. I can understand the redshirts thing in TOS when that bit of technobabble hadn't been worked out, but by TNG it should have been standard operating procedure to spin up new ones when the old ones got vaporized by the monster of the week.
- philipkglass 8y ago
  I can understand the redshirts thing in TOS when that bit of technobabble hadn't been worked out, but by TNG it should have been standard operating procedure to spin up new ones when the old ones got vaporized by the monster of the week. In the Culture, they actually do that. Few people are in danger of unexpected death in the first place, but you can be restored from a pattern backup if you do suffer an unexpected death. It's extraordinarily rare for a citizen of the Culture to suffer involuntary permanent death. I personally think of the Culture as "Star Trek done right." They have the same basic toolkit of fictional technologies: strong AI, FTL communications and travel, replicators, abundant energy, artificial gravity, force fields, and teleportation. But instead of being stodgily conservative like the Federation they're making full use of the possibilities offered by these technologies.
- davidivadavid 8y ago
  Is it possible for utopias to be both boring to talk about and incredibly exciting for the people who live in them (as they probably should be, given they're utopias)?
  - krapp 8y ago
vidarh 8y ago
This is why DS9 is my favourite Star Trek. They deal with this to a great extent: Replicators are limited both in scope (there are episodes talking about large industrial replicators), and in frequency of use (they use a lot of energy, and requires maintenance, and Voyager had already established rationing). Being placed in a total backwater, with the time to get Federation assistance frequently being a plot point, they could play with things like money and wealth feeling strange and foreign to the Federation citizens, but have them but up against it. DS9 actually tries to address it to an extent. And it also gives the Ferengi a lot more depth and shows that they're not all greed all the time. But I agree part of the appeal of the Culture is that it was taken to the other extreme of what a truly post-scarcity society might look like. > and they're not entirely sure what's happened to the others... ... and on this point, they look like luddites. The Culture are those who are left, who have refused to go into virtual environments or sublime, and who limit their lifespans, and mostly retain their normal biological functions. It's fascinating to see a civilization that seems so advanced, and is so in terms of capability, but that in many ways have a lot in common with the Amish in having rejected taking the next steps.
noir_lord 8y ago
If you like the culture novels you should check out the polity series by Neal Asher. There is a fair amount of overlap (mostly benevolent AIs) but he world builds better than anyone I’ve read almost anywhere and particularly in sci-fi, Spatterjay is brilliantly realised.
- NikolaNovak 8y ago
  This one? https://www.goodreads.com/series/49128-polity-universe-chronological-order https://www.goodreads.com/series/49128-polity-universe-chron... I'll check it out, thanks!:)
  - noir_lord 8y ago
    Aye that's the one.
- Bartweiss 8y ago
  Thanks very much! I've heard the name mentioned positively before, but never really kept track of him. That's definitely grounds for me to check it out.

arethuza 8y ago

Don't most of them Sublime? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sublimed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sublimed

Bartweiss 8y ago
Yep - "don't know what happened" was a bit overstated, I just wanted to put it simply. "Don't know quite what happens when you Sublime" would be more accurate. I think it might be Excession or even Phlebas that first brings up the idea that the Culture is unusual for reaching such a high level of development without subliming?
- arethuza 8y ago
  Yes - one of the later novels does mention that other advanced societies do regard the Culture as being a bit immature in their insistence that they won't sublime. Incidentally, Subliming reminds me a bit of the transition from the Beyond to the Transcend in Vinge's Zones of Thought stories.

krapp 8y ago

>Star Trek always felt odd to me because the non-utopian elements felt far too embedded in the utopian stuff. That's because utopias are boring. Gene Roddenberry's vision if actually followed through with would have made for dismal television, so the writers had to back away from it now and then. To me the flawed utopias are more interesting and even more inspiring. I can relate to people having to struggle to uphold their morals in a violent and uncertain universe, but not so much to people who are already perfect. >And, yes, redshirts - quite a few people in utopia still get killed because no one knows how to keep them safe. Despite it being canon that transporter buffers can be used to store a backup of a person's entire pattern and make copies of them. I can understand the redshirts thing in TOS when that bit of technobabble hadn't been worked out, but by TNG it should have been standard operating procedure to spin up new ones when the old ones got vaporized by the monster of the week.

philipkglass 8y ago
I can understand the redshirts thing in TOS when that bit of technobabble hadn't been worked out, but by TNG it should have been standard operating procedure to spin up new ones when the old ones got vaporized by the monster of the week. In the Culture, they actually do that. Few people are in danger of unexpected death in the first place, but you can be restored from a pattern backup if you do suffer an unexpected death. It's extraordinarily rare for a citizen of the Culture to suffer involuntary permanent death. I personally think of the Culture as "Star Trek done right." They have the same basic toolkit of fictional technologies: strong AI, FTL communications and travel, replicators, abundant energy, artificial gravity, force fields, and teleportation. But instead of being stodgily conservative like the Federation they're making full use of the possibilities offered by these technologies.
davidivadavid 8y ago
Is it possible for utopias to be both boring to talk about and incredibly exciting for the people who live in them (as they probably should be, given they're utopias)?
- krapp 8y ago

vidarh 8y ago

This is why DS9 is my favourite Star Trek. They deal with this to a great extent: Replicators are limited both in scope (there are episodes talking about large industrial replicators), and in frequency of use (they use a lot of energy, and requires maintenance, and Voyager had already established rationing). Being placed in a total backwater, with the time to get Federation assistance frequently being a plot point, they could play with things like money and wealth feeling strange and foreign to the Federation citizens, but have them but up against it. DS9 actually tries to address it to an extent. And it also gives the Ferengi a lot more depth and shows that they're not all greed all the time. But I agree part of the appeal of the Culture is that it was taken to the other extreme of what a truly post-scarcity society might look like. > and they're not entirely sure what's happened to the others... ... and on this point, they look like luddites. The Culture are those who are left, who have refused to go into virtual environments or sublime, and who limit their lifespans, and mostly retain their normal biological functions. It's fascinating to see a civilization that seems so advanced, and is so in terms of capability, but that in many ways have a lot in common with the Amish in having rejected taking the next steps.

noir_lord 8y ago

If you like the culture novels you should check out the polity series by Neal Asher. There is a fair amount of overlap (mostly benevolent AIs) but he world builds better than anyone I’ve read almost anywhere and particularly in sci-fi, Spatterjay is brilliantly realised.

NikolaNovak 8y ago
This one? https://www.goodreads.com/series/49128-polity-universe-chronological-order https://www.goodreads.com/series/49128-polity-universe-chron... I'll check it out, thanks!:)
- noir_lord 8y ago
  Aye that's the one.
Bartweiss 8y ago
Thanks very much! I've heard the name mentioned positively before, but never really kept track of him. That's definitely grounds for me to check it out.