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It's a simple fact that vaccines are safe and perhaps the best medical tool we have along with antibiotics to prevent mass death. Only 0.0001% of vaccination do

by entee 8y ago

It's a simple fact that vaccines are safe and perhaps the best medical tool we have along with antibiotics to prevent mass death. Only 0.0001% of vaccination doses result in significant complications (roughly 3,800 compensated injuries out of 3.4B doses over ~30y, something like 5,600 total filed injuries [1]). It's also true that they work in part through herd immunity, the concept that if most people are vaccinated, diseases can't spread to those who aren't or can't be. Still, enough people find this controversial, resorting to conspiracy-minded thinking. It's another example of how science doesn't seem to sink through, and repeating facts doesn't seem to help. Maybe figuring out how to communicate more empathetically through people's perceived values can help [2]. But honestly I'm at a loss, and it's deeply tragic to see so much needless suffering. [1] https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/data/index.html https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/data/index.html [2] https://slate.com/technology/2019/02/antivax-measles-outbreak-moral-foundations-theory.html https://slate.com/technology/2019/02/antivax-measles-outbrea...

fossuser 8y ago
I think the only reason the conspiracy can exist is because of the effectiveness of vaccines - we don't routinely see or know people with the disease anymore. I read that in poorer countries where vaccines are hard to get and the disease is still common people will travel far distances to get to clinics in order to vaccinate their children.
- henrikschroder 8y ago
  This was the case for our grandparents generation as well. When they grew up, kids commonly died of childhood diseases, so when they had kids and vaccines became available, they fucking rushed to have their kids vaccinated, because they had seen the bad effects of the diseases. I was born in the 1970's, and noone from my generation or younger in the west has really seen the bad effects, noone we knew died of measles or got paralyzed by polio, so we have no fear of the diseases. And that's why the fears of the anti-vax movement are so strong, there's no counter-balance to them. Everything is a risk, having a vaccine is risky, but if people value the risk of the diseases as 0, of course some people are going to object to the vaccines, because they think it's the bigger risk.
  - jostmey 8y ago
    > "having a vaccine is risky" That risk is for all practical purposes, zero
    - henrikschroder 8y ago
      Yes, but it's not actually zero, even if you remove all the false vaccine side-effects like autism and mercury poisoning. And that's where the irrational fear of vaccines attach itself. But the actual non-zero risk of death or other horrible side-effects from the diseases, they have nowhere to attach to. We don't get regular stories in the media of kids dying of measles, because we almost eradicated it. So given this, some parents weigh one risk incorrectly way higher than 0, and the other risk incorrectly at 0, and then they make the rational decision not to vaccinate their kid. And I think it's important to understand that anti-vax parents actually don't make irrational choices, they make rational choices, but they're made on the grounds of an incorrect and horribly wrong risk analysis. Hopefully, news stories like this increase the general awareness that measles is a terrible disease, which then can change the risk analysis that people are doing. It just sucks that a bunch of kids have to suffer needlessly because of stupid fearmongering.
    - masonic 8y ago
      There are outliers. My 6th grade best friend's sister died from the "Swine Flu" vaccine in the 70s. That said, a good parent plays the percentages.
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  The conspiracy exists because in order to satisfy their ego, people like to think they know more than they do. At the same time, people will reject a doctor's advice because they know more than the doctor, but then run to the doctor when they get sick. Other than education, I don't know how we can counter this. It's sad that almost everyone I ask doesn't know how evolution works by the time they graduate high school, much less how vaccines work.
- ridgeguy 8y ago
  Spot on. I'm old enough to recall my patents' relief when I got a polio vaccination. There were multiple children on iron lungs among their age-peer friends. I grew up in the age of antibiotic supremacy. It's still counterintuitive for me to realize that somebody can now die of a bacterial infection from a scratch. I hope we don't have to return periodically to the bad old days to convince people of the worth of vaccination. edit - missing word
- QuantumGood 8y ago
  At a certain point, when almost everyone is vaccinated, the odds of having a negative outcome from a vaccine is similar to having a negative outcome from being unvaccinated. Since we don't "routinely see or know people with the disease" it doesn't take analysis to realize that it may be worth taking vaccine risks into account. The problem is more of an overlooked "tragedy of the commons", where people who are not vaccinated benefit from the vaccinations of others, until outbreak risks rise too greatly. That risks from being unvaccinated are low as long as most people get vaccinated, and that vaccines have some risk, makes it a much more difficult decision for some parents than is generally acknowledged.

by entee 8y ago

fossuser 8y ago

I think the only reason the conspiracy can exist is because of the effectiveness of vaccines - we don't routinely see or know people with the disease anymore. I read that in poorer countries where vaccines are hard to get and the disease is still common people will travel far distances to get to clinics in order to vaccinate their children.

henrikschroder 8y ago
This was the case for our grandparents generation as well. When they grew up, kids commonly died of childhood diseases, so when they had kids and vaccines became available, they fucking rushed to have their kids vaccinated, because they had seen the bad effects of the diseases. I was born in the 1970's, and noone from my generation or younger in the west has really seen the bad effects, noone we knew died of measles or got paralyzed by polio, so we have no fear of the diseases. And that's why the fears of the anti-vax movement are so strong, there's no counter-balance to them. Everything is a risk, having a vaccine is risky, but if people value the risk of the diseases as 0, of course some people are going to object to the vaccines, because they think it's the bigger risk.
- jostmey 8y ago
  > "having a vaccine is risky" That risk is for all practical purposes, zero
  - henrikschroder 8y ago
    Yes, but it's not actually zero, even if you remove all the false vaccine side-effects like autism and mercury poisoning. And that's where the irrational fear of vaccines attach itself. But the actual non-zero risk of death or other horrible side-effects from the diseases, they have nowhere to attach to. We don't get regular stories in the media of kids dying of measles, because we almost eradicated it. So given this, some parents weigh one risk incorrectly way higher than 0, and the other risk incorrectly at 0, and then they make the rational decision not to vaccinate their kid. And I think it's important to understand that anti-vax parents actually don't make irrational choices, they make rational choices, but they're made on the grounds of an incorrect and horribly wrong risk analysis. Hopefully, news stories like this increase the general awareness that measles is a terrible disease, which then can change the risk analysis that people are doing. It just sucks that a bunch of kids have to suffer needlessly because of stupid fearmongering.
  - masonic 8y ago
    There are outliers. My 6th grade best friend's sister died from the "Swine Flu" vaccine in the 70s. That said, a good parent plays the percentages.
lotsofpulp 8y ago
The conspiracy exists because in order to satisfy their ego, people like to think they know more than they do. At the same time, people will reject a doctor's advice because they know more than the doctor, but then run to the doctor when they get sick. Other than education, I don't know how we can counter this. It's sad that almost everyone I ask doesn't know how evolution works by the time they graduate high school, much less how vaccines work.
ridgeguy 8y ago
Spot on. I'm old enough to recall my patents' relief when I got a polio vaccination. There were multiple children on iron lungs among their age-peer friends. I grew up in the age of antibiotic supremacy. It's still counterintuitive for me to realize that somebody can now die of a bacterial infection from a scratch. I hope we don't have to return periodically to the bad old days to convince people of the worth of vaccination. edit - missing word
QuantumGood 8y ago
At a certain point, when almost everyone is vaccinated, the odds of having a negative outcome from a vaccine is similar to having a negative outcome from being unvaccinated. Since we don't "routinely see or know people with the disease" it doesn't take analysis to realize that it may be worth taking vaccine risks into account. The problem is more of an overlooked "tragedy of the commons", where people who are not vaccinated benefit from the vaccinations of others, until outbreak risks rise too greatly. That risks from being unvaccinated are low as long as most people get vaccinated, and that vaccines have some risk, makes it a much more difficult decision for some parents than is generally acknowledged.