4 ms·

> Many people make use of payday loans. If you remove that option, those people aren't any better off. This is a false dichotomy - the options are wider than "

> Many people make use of payday loans. If you remove that option, those people aren't any better off. This is a false dichotomy - the options are wider than "unregulated lenders" and "non-existant lenders". Imagine saying in 1850: "Many 8 year olds work in coal mines. If you remove that option, those kids aren't any better off."

candiodari 8y ago
They did not remove that option. They provided schools, as an option, without forcing people, then made them free (mostly because the church was out competing them, but ... it's not like that still matters). Kids were widely expected to work on the fields during school holidays as recently as the 70s. For that matter, ever notice how if you wanted your kid to work the fields, that school holidays sure have mighty convenient dates ? That's not a coincidence ... So they very much did not remove the option of having kids work in the coal mines and on the fields. Not for a LOOOONG time after the 1850s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labor_laws_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labor_laws_in_the_United... You could apply that here: the government could get into the payday lending business and enforce a maximum interest rate that way.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  >mostly because the church was out competing them, but ... it's not like that still matters I disagree that it does not still matter. For the past few centuries or so (depending on what country you're looking at) the church had the monopoly on morals and the state had the monopoly on violence. It seems to have in the last 100yr (in the US at least) the government, and to a lesser extent corporations, have replaced the church as the source of morals for a great deal of the population in Europe and North America. Public education is a great net good but we need to be careful with it because the line between education and indoctrination is a fine one. I think that the replacement of church provided education with public education poses a slow long term risk to secular societies. You do not want the entity that has a monopoly on violence also controlling education and with it morality. That's how you get the crusades, the USSR, etc. I'm not sure what the solution is. I don't think increased religion is it. FWIW I am not religious.
pitaj 8y ago
Why are people using payday loans if they already have better alternatives? If it wasn't their best option, why would they pick it? Yes, you're making them worse off by removing their best option. > Imagine saying in 1850: "Many 8 year olds work in coal mines. If you remove that option, those kids aren't any better off." Why are kids working in mines if they already have better alternatives? If it wasn't their best option, why would they pick it? Yes, you're making them worse off by removing their best option.
- arthur_pryor 8y ago
  the point is, by removing the "least bad" option of an 8 year old working a coal mine, we were forced to improve our labor practices overall. if kids don't have a better option than working in a coal mine at 8, society needs to come up with that better option, rather than giving the kid/family the current "best".
  - pitaj 8y ago
    But doing so will only force them into worse options for the time being. By restricting those options, you aren't magically progressing society into higher standards of living. If you want better options, create them. Then you won't need to forcefully restrict other options, people will voluntarily switch over.
    - lazyasciiart 8y ago
      Citation needed.
  - kortilla 8y ago
    Well banning them certainly would have led to many families being worse off in the short term (lost income) and coal prices increasing (reduced labor pool). The analysis needs to be compared against alternative policies that would have discouraged it through market pressure (e.g. free school for children with a free meal) rather than an outright ban. Don’t ban the undesirable thing, figure out why people are doing the undesirable thing in the first place and address that. Btw the children example is bad because there is an entirely separate argument about the child not being old enough to make decisions that completely muddies the point.

candiodari 8y ago

They did not remove that option. They provided schools, as an option, without forcing people, then made them free (mostly because the church was out competing them, but ... it's not like that still matters). Kids were widely expected to work on the fields during school holidays as recently as the 70s. For that matter, ever notice how if you wanted your kid to work the fields, that school holidays sure have mighty convenient dates ? That's not a coincidence ... So they very much did not remove the option of having kids work in the coal mines and on the fields. Not for a LOOOONG time after the 1850s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labor_laws_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labor_laws_in_the_United... You could apply that here: the government could get into the payday lending business and enforce a maximum interest rate that way.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago
>mostly because the church was out competing them, but ... it's not like that still matters I disagree that it does not still matter. For the past few centuries or so (depending on what country you're looking at) the church had the monopoly on morals and the state had the monopoly on violence. It seems to have in the last 100yr (in the US at least) the government, and to a lesser extent corporations, have replaced the church as the source of morals for a great deal of the population in Europe and North America. Public education is a great net good but we need to be careful with it because the line between education and indoctrination is a fine one. I think that the replacement of church provided education with public education poses a slow long term risk to secular societies. You do not want the entity that has a monopoly on violence also controlling education and with it morality. That's how you get the crusades, the USSR, etc. I'm not sure what the solution is. I don't think increased religion is it. FWIW I am not religious.

pitaj 8y ago

Why are people using payday loans if they already have better alternatives? If it wasn't their best option, why would they pick it? Yes, you're making them worse off by removing their best option. > Imagine saying in 1850: "Many 8 year olds work in coal mines. If you remove that option, those kids aren't any better off." Why are kids working in mines if they already have better alternatives? If it wasn't their best option, why would they pick it? Yes, you're making them worse off by removing their best option.

arthur_pryor 8y ago
the point is, by removing the "least bad" option of an 8 year old working a coal mine, we were forced to improve our labor practices overall. if kids don't have a better option than working in a coal mine at 8, society needs to come up with that better option, rather than giving the kid/family the current "best".
- pitaj 8y ago
  But doing so will only force them into worse options for the time being. By restricting those options, you aren't magically progressing society into higher standards of living. If you want better options, create them. Then you won't need to forcefully restrict other options, people will voluntarily switch over.
  - lazyasciiart 8y ago
    Citation needed.
- kortilla 8y ago
  Well banning them certainly would have led to many families being worse off in the short term (lost income) and coal prices increasing (reduced labor pool). The analysis needs to be compared against alternative policies that would have discouraged it through market pressure (e.g. free school for children with a free meal) rather than an outright ban. Don’t ban the undesirable thing, figure out why people are doing the undesirable thing in the first place and address that. Btw the children example is bad because there is an entirely separate argument about the child not being old enough to make decisions that completely muddies the point.