7 ms·

Everyone here is talking about their skillset, and I'm going to take another direction: appearance and interpersonal skills. There is ageism, yes, but I think

by moosey 8y ago

Everyone here is talking about their skillset, and I'm going to take another direction: appearance and interpersonal skills. There is ageism, yes, but I think a deeper problem is reaction to peoples appearance. If you are late twenties concerned about age, then hide it, starting now. * Always wear sunscreen when you are outside, regardless of race. It prevents skin aging, and you'll still tan and get Vitamin D regardless. * Work out: lifting weights and doing cardio have differing goals and match up in interesting ways. Learn them. I do almost 100% pure heavy weight lifting, and I'm actually very thin, despite what I toss around. * Make sure your clothes fit and look good. Go to a tailor and get one outfit made nice a year for interviews/on-sites (if working remotely) etc. Taking care of yourself physically might not seem related to a lot of this, but people discriminate in a number of ways, and the more you take away, the better you might do. In addition, two of the above are general health things that you should be doing anyhow. I forgot about interpersonal skills when I first finished writing this: * Practice getting people talking about themselves. It's the best way to get people to think that you are interesting. I would argue it's the most important tool in my interpersonal skillset and I've met a ton of interesting people using it.

technofiend 8y ago
Professionalism both in terms of appearance and interaction are definitely helpful. And despite my ripping on SV stereotypes in other posts I actually adore IT. I'm delighted to come to the office every day because it's an opportunity to apply something I know, solve a problem or learn something new. I recently changed roles after going back to my UNIX SA roots and working for the last few years in a front-line customer-facing support group; what people would call the ops side of devops. My boss was gutted to lose me as their last line of defense before escalating to Red Hat but what he and his boss miss the most (so they say) is my ability to remain cool under pressure and solve technical issues while managing bridges with MDs and EDs on the line. Partially it was organizational authority (oh, they escalated to that guy) but it was also technical authority (oh, they escalated to the guy who solved the last major problem we had, and put in a SIP to make it never happen again) and partially it was managing the message and keeping it appropriate to the audience. I realize this is an absurdly self-aggrandizing post but it's an honest assessment of beyond strictly technical ability how some people add value and my way of agreeing with the post above mine that interpersonal skills are paramount. And to echo what others have said - keeping current is IMHO the key to keeping employable. I ran down the Red Hat Certified Architect track because my employer paid for it and it was a way to get my guys motivated to get it done too to better their skills. We have several more RHCAs as a result. But I also spent the last year building k8s clusters and figuring out how to integrate kubernetes into my employer's systems and now I'm off extending terraform providers in go to the same end. It's fun as hell to think every day I shave off getting systems to my peers sooner is one more day they're productive that much faster. At the scale we work that's a huge lever. How can anyone not be excited about that regardless of age?
- alchemism 8y ago
  I note that a number of the positive retorts to the stated fear of tedium come from systems folk.
avip 8y ago
So in short the cure for ageism is to try and look younger than you are? No one saw that one coming.
- mbrameld 8y ago
  The comment you're replying to suggest something slightly different. It suggests that you do things that will minimize the chances that you will look older than you are. While I don't think it's a cure any more than locking your door is a cure for theft, it does improve your chances of getting hired in the world we live in today.
- adamredwoods 8y ago
  Great advice, if we could all look younger when we want, we would! A lot of it depends on genetics. We'd all exercise more if our knees and backs weren't grinding down from years of use. Any over 50 female developers care to respond to this "look younger" advice?
  - kkarakk 8y ago
    >over 50 female developers people i've interacted with irl but never seen online
  - moosey 8y ago
    I do understand that women have a different experience than men in tech, and everywhere for that matter, regardless of age. I'm sorry for this, I didn't create the situation, but I live in it. I want to be part of that solution. That's not what I'm going to discuss next, though. Working out with a bad knees and back is not that hard, and is really common with runners who started in high school. Extremely common in fact, especially with road runners. I see these people in the gym all the time lifting weights because it's so low impact, while at the same time being a primary defense against osteoporosis. Nothing that you do can replace it and I would strongly encourage it after talking to your doctor.
  - snowwrestler 8y ago
    Not developers, but I work with a lot of professional women and basically every single one who is old enough to have gray hair, colors her hair to hide the gray. I've posted about this before but Ginni Rometty, who is 61 years old, has perfect blond hair with no gray; she obviously has it colored. She is the CEO of IBM and feels the need to do this... that gives you a sense of the amount of pressure on professional women to look young.
ronilan 8y ago
The obligatory and timeless “Wear Sunscreen” for those not familiar. Original text https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-schmich-sunscreen-column-column,amp.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-schmich-s... And late 90s pop hit: https://youtu.be/sTJ7AzBIJoI https://youtu.be/sTJ7AzBIJoI
stockkid 8y ago
> Practice getting people talking about themselves. It's the best way to get people to think that you are interesting. Could you elaborate why why that is the case?
- larrywright 8y ago
  If you haven't read it, pick up "How to Win Friends and Influence People" - it's the best book on interpersonal skills you're likely to find. One of the key points in there is that people love to talk about themselves. If you want to impress someone you've just met, start asking them questions about themselves, and be genuinely interested in what they have to say. When you part ways, that person is likely going to think you're a great conversationalist, even if you hardly said a word about yourself. In other words, you're an interesting person if you're interested in them.
  - _Nat_ 8y ago
    That sounds like good advice! But if you could elaborate a bit, how do you actually apply this in everyday situations? Any recent examples?
    - wyclif 8y ago
      If you have difficulty making eye contact with people when you're speaking to them, practice it over and over again until it becomes natural. This was tough for me at first; I had to practice a lot. I tended to start the conversation making eye contact but then dropping my gaze, looking away, or glancing over the shoulder of the person I was speaking to. Eye contact is a powerful thing, especially if you're trying to be persuasive. And persuasion is an important part of business, even if you're not in sales and even if you're a software developer.
fredcy 8y ago
I'm 60 and doing a combination of IT and app development work. I totally agree about the exercise part of this. Not so much to look younger (although it might help), but rather to have the energy and mobility of a younger person.
megaman8 8y ago
I agree with all this except the sunscreen part. I was under the impression that sunscreen can actually increase the chance of cancer. Furthermore, sunscreen does block vitamin-D. But, you don't need much (sunblock free) sun exposure to max out your vitamin-D absorption (just 12 minutes a day will do it). On a side note, I do intermittent fasting and caloric restriction to hopefully reduce my rate of aging.
- lurkertroll 8y ago
  Why do you believe that suncreen causes cancer?
- mikkelam 8y ago
  Not using suncreen will also cause cancer, namely skin cancer.
- moosey 8y ago
  There is vast scientific evidence showing that using sunscreen reduces cancer risk. There was a study that showed it could cause increases, but when analyzed further (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447210/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447210/) it showed that people who use sunscreen spend more time in the sun. While using sunscreen reduces your chances of getting cancer, there is nothing quite like avoiding the sun entirely for the vast majority of the day. There are more recent studies like https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22086817 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22086817, where if you go to the link, it actually points out the value in spending some time in the sun, getting some melanin and vitamin D development, which will fight a specific kind of skin cancer (CMM) that doesn't seem to be stopped by sunscreen, and might have a number of confounding factors. The basics are that it's complicated, but that if you are spending time in the sun, you should be using sunscreen, but that you also need some sun, or something like that, who really knows. https://www.nia.nih.gov/health/skin-care-and-aging https://www.nia.nih.gov/health/skin-care-and-aging That article also suggests the use of sunscreen.
imhoguy 8y ago
This. I would also add hygiene to that list. Take extra care about your teeth, control the smell (hint: diet!), cut hair regulary, cut & clean nails, trim nosehair, earhair, cure acnes, clear blackheads. Don't be afraid of beautician.
RedPill101 8y ago
looksmaxing to the bone.

by moosey 8y ago

technofiend 8y ago

Professionalism both in terms of appearance and interaction are definitely helpful. And despite my ripping on SV stereotypes in other posts I actually adore IT. I'm delighted to come to the office every day because it's an opportunity to apply something I know, solve a problem or learn something new. I recently changed roles after going back to my UNIX SA roots and working for the last few years in a front-line customer-facing support group; what people would call the ops side of devops. My boss was gutted to lose me as their last line of defense before escalating to Red Hat but what he and his boss miss the most (so they say) is my ability to remain cool under pressure and solve technical issues while managing bridges with MDs and EDs on the line. Partially it was organizational authority (oh, they escalated to that guy) but it was also technical authority (oh, they escalated to the guy who solved the last major problem we had, and put in a SIP to make it never happen again) and partially it was managing the message and keeping it appropriate to the audience. I realize this is an absurdly self-aggrandizing post but it's an honest assessment of beyond strictly technical ability how some people add value and my way of agreeing with the post above mine that interpersonal skills are paramount. And to echo what others have said - keeping current is IMHO the key to keeping employable. I ran down the Red Hat Certified Architect track because my employer paid for it and it was a way to get my guys motivated to get it done too to better their skills. We have several more RHCAs as a result. But I also spent the last year building k8s clusters and figuring out how to integrate kubernetes into my employer's systems and now I'm off extending terraform providers in go to the same end. It's fun as hell to think every day I shave off getting systems to my peers sooner is one more day they're productive that much faster. At the scale we work that's a huge lever. How can anyone not be excited about that regardless of age?

alchemism 8y ago
I note that a number of the positive retorts to the stated fear of tedium come from systems folk.

avip 8y ago

So in short the cure for ageism is to try and look younger than you are? No one saw that one coming.

mbrameld 8y ago
The comment you're replying to suggest something slightly different. It suggests that you do things that will minimize the chances that you will look older than you are. While I don't think it's a cure any more than locking your door is a cure for theft, it does improve your chances of getting hired in the world we live in today.
adamredwoods 8y ago
Great advice, if we could all look younger when we want, we would! A lot of it depends on genetics. We'd all exercise more if our knees and backs weren't grinding down from years of use. Any over 50 female developers care to respond to this "look younger" advice?
- kkarakk 8y ago
  >over 50 female developers people i've interacted with irl but never seen online
- moosey 8y ago
  I do understand that women have a different experience than men in tech, and everywhere for that matter, regardless of age. I'm sorry for this, I didn't create the situation, but I live in it. I want to be part of that solution. That's not what I'm going to discuss next, though. Working out with a bad knees and back is not that hard, and is really common with runners who started in high school. Extremely common in fact, especially with road runners. I see these people in the gym all the time lifting weights because it's so low impact, while at the same time being a primary defense against osteoporosis. Nothing that you do can replace it and I would strongly encourage it after talking to your doctor.
- snowwrestler 8y ago
  Not developers, but I work with a lot of professional women and basically every single one who is old enough to have gray hair, colors her hair to hide the gray. I've posted about this before but Ginni Rometty, who is 61 years old, has perfect blond hair with no gray; she obviously has it colored. She is the CEO of IBM and feels the need to do this... that gives you a sense of the amount of pressure on professional women to look young.

ronilan 8y ago

The obligatory and timeless “Wear Sunscreen” for those not familiar. Original text https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-schmich-sunscreen-column-column,amp.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-schmich-s... And late 90s pop hit: https://youtu.be/sTJ7AzBIJoI https://youtu.be/sTJ7AzBIJoI

stockkid 8y ago

> Practice getting people talking about themselves. It's the best way to get people to think that you are interesting. Could you elaborate why why that is the case?

larrywright 8y ago
If you haven't read it, pick up "How to Win Friends and Influence People" - it's the best book on interpersonal skills you're likely to find. One of the key points in there is that people love to talk about themselves. If you want to impress someone you've just met, start asking them questions about themselves, and be genuinely interested in what they have to say. When you part ways, that person is likely going to think you're a great conversationalist, even if you hardly said a word about yourself. In other words, you're an interesting person if you're interested in them.
- _Nat_ 8y ago
  That sounds like good advice! But if you could elaborate a bit, how do you actually apply this in everyday situations? Any recent examples?
  - wyclif 8y ago
    If you have difficulty making eye contact with people when you're speaking to them, practice it over and over again until it becomes natural. This was tough for me at first; I had to practice a lot. I tended to start the conversation making eye contact but then dropping my gaze, looking away, or glancing over the shoulder of the person I was speaking to. Eye contact is a powerful thing, especially if you're trying to be persuasive. And persuasion is an important part of business, even if you're not in sales and even if you're a software developer.

fredcy 8y ago

I'm 60 and doing a combination of IT and app development work. I totally agree about the exercise part of this. Not so much to look younger (although it might help), but rather to have the energy and mobility of a younger person.

megaman8 8y ago

I agree with all this except the sunscreen part. I was under the impression that sunscreen can actually increase the chance of cancer. Furthermore, sunscreen does block vitamin-D. But, you don't need much (sunblock free) sun exposure to max out your vitamin-D absorption (just 12 minutes a day will do it). On a side note, I do intermittent fasting and caloric restriction to hopefully reduce my rate of aging.

lurkertroll 8y ago
Why do you believe that suncreen causes cancer?
mikkelam 8y ago
Not using suncreen will also cause cancer, namely skin cancer.
moosey 8y ago
There is vast scientific evidence showing that using sunscreen reduces cancer risk. There was a study that showed it could cause increases, but when analyzed further (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447210/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447210/) it showed that people who use sunscreen spend more time in the sun. While using sunscreen reduces your chances of getting cancer, there is nothing quite like avoiding the sun entirely for the vast majority of the day. There are more recent studies like https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22086817 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22086817, where if you go to the link, it actually points out the value in spending some time in the sun, getting some melanin and vitamin D development, which will fight a specific kind of skin cancer (CMM) that doesn't seem to be stopped by sunscreen, and might have a number of confounding factors. The basics are that it's complicated, but that if you are spending time in the sun, you should be using sunscreen, but that you also need some sun, or something like that, who really knows. https://www.nia.nih.gov/health/skin-care-and-aging https://www.nia.nih.gov/health/skin-care-and-aging That article also suggests the use of sunscreen.

imhoguy 8y ago

This. I would also add hygiene to that list. Take extra care about your teeth, control the smell (hint: diet!), cut hair regulary, cut & clean nails, trim nosehair, earhair, cure acnes, clear blackheads. Don't be afraid of beautician.

RedPill101 8y ago

looksmaxing to the bone.