4 ms·

If the restaurant is paying less than minimum wage - which many (perhaps most, in some areas) do - then that's exactly what's happening.

brlewis 8y ago
You don't really mean "exactly what's happening". You mean "approximately what's happening, averaged across everyone's tips." Which is still not true, because people know the restaurant situation up front, while this situation goes against expectations.
- loeg 8y ago
  No, GP was right the first time. "Server wage" is exactly this — the employer pays less than the nominal minimum wage, and tips from customers are appropriated to make up the difference.
  - brlewis 8y ago
    Server wage: Workers and customers know up front that base pay is lower. Customers expect that their tips will go to the worker in addition to base pay. This: Base pay starts low, and is reduced by the tip amount, contrary to the expectations of customers and workers. Now is it clear how they are two different things?
    - loeg 8y ago
      I think you're misrepresenting server wage. To style it like your comment, server wage: Base pay starts low (minimum wage), and is reduced by the tip amount. Customers may or may not be aware that servers are paid below minimum wage and that their tips will be appropriated by the business. Businesses don't exactly advertise this.
      - tkxxx7 8y ago
        yeah, but workers in a restaurant aren’t exactly having their financial expectations shattered.
      - brlewis 8y ago
        I couldn't find where any law enshrined businesses appropriating tips. I googled server wage and just found https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage If there's something enshrined in law beyond a lower minimum wage for tipped workers I'm interested to know.
        tfehring 8y ago
        Say I'm a tipped worker making $3/hour in an area with a minimum wage of $10/hour. I work for an hour and don't receive any tips. My employer has to pay me $10 to comply with minimum wage laws. I work for another hour and receive $5 in tips. My employer now has to pay me $5 so that my total pay for the hour is $10. I make the same amount in wages + tips that I did in the first hour, but my employer saves $5.
        jdeibele 8y ago
        Yes, but if that goes on you get fired. The restaurant probably isn't expecting to pay you anything more than the $3/hour. There's lots of jobs, like commissioned sales, where the employer has to pay minimum wage. They get rid of salespeople who may do a great job of relating to the customer and explaining the benefits but can't close the sale. Out the door for somebody who is pushy, etc.
        loeg 8y ago
        Yes, that's precisely what I'm talking about. > a lower minimum wage for tipped workers Money is fungible; reducing paid wage by the amount tipped (to a limit) is the same as just paying minimum wage and taking that portion of the tip from the worker.

brlewis 8y ago

You don't really mean "exactly what's happening". You mean "approximately what's happening, averaged across everyone's tips." Which is still not true, because people know the restaurant situation up front, while this situation goes against expectations.

loeg 8y ago
No, GP was right the first time. "Server wage" is exactly this — the employer pays less than the nominal minimum wage, and tips from customers are appropriated to make up the difference.
- brlewis 8y ago
  Server wage: Workers and customers know up front that base pay is lower. Customers expect that their tips will go to the worker in addition to base pay. This: Base pay starts low, and is reduced by the tip amount, contrary to the expectations of customers and workers. Now is it clear how they are two different things?
  - loeg 8y ago
    I think you're misrepresenting server wage. To style it like your comment, server wage: Base pay starts low (minimum wage), and is reduced by the tip amount. Customers may or may not be aware that servers are paid below minimum wage and that their tips will be appropriated by the business. Businesses don't exactly advertise this.
    - tkxxx7 8y ago
      yeah, but workers in a restaurant aren’t exactly having their financial expectations shattered.
    - brlewis 8y ago
      I couldn't find where any law enshrined businesses appropriating tips. I googled server wage and just found https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage If there's something enshrined in law beyond a lower minimum wage for tipped workers I'm interested to know.
      - tfehring 8y ago
        Say I'm a tipped worker making $3/hour in an area with a minimum wage of $10/hour. I work for an hour and don't receive any tips. My employer has to pay me $10 to comply with minimum wage laws. I work for another hour and receive $5 in tips. My employer now has to pay me $5 so that my total pay for the hour is $10. I make the same amount in wages + tips that I did in the first hour, but my employer saves $5.
        jdeibele 8y ago
        Yes, but if that goes on you get fired. The restaurant probably isn't expecting to pay you anything more than the $3/hour. There's lots of jobs, like commissioned sales, where the employer has to pay minimum wage. They get rid of salespeople who may do a great job of relating to the customer and explaining the benefits but can't close the sale. Out the door for somebody who is pushy, etc.
      - loeg 8y ago
        Yes, that's precisely what I'm talking about. > a lower minimum wage for tipped workers Money is fungible; reducing paid wage by the amount tipped (to a limit) is the same as just paying minimum wage and taking that portion of the tip from the worker.