5 ms·

“Not everybody lives in California”: Tesla Model 3's frozen door handles

17 points by howard941 8y ago

CharlesColeman 8y ago
I just realized the other day that winter weather will most likely mean that self-driving cars will more dangerous than conventional cars in much of the world for the foreseeable future, until they can be made fully autonomous in even the most difficult weather conditions. Winter driving can be some of the most difficult and dangerous conditions to drive in for a human. It's already bad enough after the first big snow when experienced fair-weather drivers have to re-acquaint themselves with winter conditions, but if they're driving skills atrophy in good weather due to self-driving car use, it will be even worse.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  if they're driving skills atrophy in good weather due to self-driving car use, it will be even worse. I remember driving in New Hampshire in the 80's as an undergraduate, thinking to myself, "They drive like it's winter all year!" If people only drove when it was winter, perhaps they'd drive like I drive now in middle age: to minimize the chance of collision. (As opposed to how I drove like a butthead in my 20's.) No assuming the turn signal is true. No assuming oncoming traffic will brake for you when you merge. (Unless you simply have no choice.) No merging turns unless you have first actually seen the oncoming traffic. On the whole, US drivers are too aggressive, and make too many assumptions. If people could model the behavior of autonomous vehicles, maybe they'd drive more rationally. (I'm Asian, and many would call my driving "Asian driving." I just don't think it's the smart or rational tradeoff to risk any more than you have to in the way of car damage, injury, or death just to get someplace a few minutes faster. Really, that strikes me as just plain stupid.)
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    In Iowa I like to say "Every summer Iowans quit believing in winter, and it takes them completely by surprise." The first day or two of driving in snow are a huge surge in accidents. So no, its not auto-driving cars that make winter-driving skills atrophy. Its summer that does that.
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      When it rains, it can rain a lot in Houston, but it still seems to take a few drivers there by surprise every time the heavy rain comes back.
    - CharlesColeman 8y ago
      > So no, its not auto-driving cars that make winter-driving skills atrophy. Its summer that does that. My point was that summer already makes winter driving skills atrophy, but self-driving cars will make general driving skills atrophy at the same time.
  - ccvannorman 8y ago
    20 year old me: "Good thing I'm an invincible F1 Driver because I am L-A-T-E!" 36 year old me: "Wow, look at all these jackbutts.. driving is stressful. Good thing I'm not in a hurry."
    - justtopost 8y ago
      Honestly its usually prepared (snow tires, good alignment) vs unprepared ('all-season' or worse, eco tires, unsure of dynamics). The unprepared people need to just stay home or call an uber for the sake of everyone else.
  - SpikeDad 8y ago
    I hate so to resort to stereotypes but I live in a big college town with many asian drivers a number of which I assume are driving in the US for the first time. They are decidedly not of the stereotype that you are claiming for asian drivers - careful and slow. I stay far away from them if possible. They don't have any idea about driving in a safe manner. But like I said stereotypes fail but I had to comment on yours.
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      I had a coworker from an entirely different part of Asia. I remember riding with him driving in Ohio and Indiana, no other cars visible to the horizon except for the one right in front of us, thinking, "There are no other cars for miles around. Why are you so very-very-very-close to the car in front!?" I guess some people would say I drive like an old person in Florida, or like someone from Ballard in Washington.
- SpikeDad 8y ago
  I was recently driving on the highway in a bad snow storm and the wet snow occluded my radar sensor and I got a warning that the adaptive cruise control was unavailable. Then my lane keeping assist cameras were blocked by snow as were the lane markers and that automation failed as well. What exactly will autonomous vehicles use to guide them in bad snow storms?
  - EliRivers 8y ago
    I suspect they just won't go. If you want to travel in bad snow storms, you do it with a manual vehicle.
elipsey 8y ago
This spate of reports about performance and reliability problems for electric cars in extremely cold weather has pointed out lots of problem with reliability and reduced range. To be meaningful and useful, these really ought to include comparisons to conventional internal combustion cars. I lived in Fairbanks for a while, and I found that lots of things don’t work well when it’s -40, especially cars. I had to plug in the block heater at least a few hours in advance of starting, and then idle for at least 15 minutes before driving. A block heater and battery blanket were necessary but sometimes not sufficient. My gas mileage was reduced by about half. There were lots of cars with mechanical problems that only crop up in those conditions. Some had doors, windows, or gas doors that would freeze. Relays and (starter!) solenoids would get stuck. A few had heater cores that would would ice and stop working so the heat and window defrost were not usable. Some displays won’t work when they are cold. The manufacturers say they test for this stuff, but it was obviously not fully addressed. Don’t assume your ICE car is going to work well when it’s that cold. Nothing works right when it’s that cold. When we use things in an environment that differs greatly form that in which they were engineered and tested are bound to surprise us. Even my bike didn’t work right up there. The grease in the headset and wheel bearings got really viscous and stiff, the cables and shifters were balky, and the breaks felt funny. I actually managed to bike commute pretty often as a student, partly because it was more reliable then driving. My ski jacket was made plastic so it got really stiff and crumpley feeling like cardboard. When I got to school my phone screen didn’t work, and my laptop wouldn’t turn on until it warmed up, but the bike at least never made me late, which is more than I could say for any car.
- slededit 8y ago
  -40 is pretty rare for most of us, but -20c (-4 f) is not too uncommon in many parts of the mid-west. My ICE car handled the polar vortex just fine. Although any marginal parts are vastly more likely to fail, I imagine a lot of batteries were replaced.
mirimir 8y ago
Just spray with windshield washer fluid. Or straight anhydrous methanol, if you like. Windshield washer fluid for sure won't damage the finish. Methanol might, but probably not. Methanol depresses the freezing point of water at low concentration. Adding ~10% methanol to gasoline was a classic for deicing fuel lines.
- Zecar 8y ago
  Windshield washer fluid is generally methanol just fyi
  - mirimir 8y ago
    That was the point :) But it does contain some water, and detergent. So straight methanol works better. Just don't drink it. And it's very biodegradable.
Barrin92 8y ago
Reminds me of the case of an automated soap dispenser not reliably detecting African American users. The high concentration of tech in one particular part of only a minority of countries will almost certainly lead to more of these occurrences. The concentration of production and mostly homogenous workforce involved in the process will undercut basic discovery processes that would expose these sort of design in the design process, not when the products ship out to customers.

17 points by howard941 8y ago

I just realized the other day that winter weather will most likely mean that self-driving cars will more dangerous than conventional cars in much of the world for the foreseeable future, until they can be made fully autonomous in even the most difficult weather conditions. Winter driving can be some of the most difficult and dangerous conditions to drive in for a human. It's already bad enough after the first big snow when experienced fair-weather drivers have to re-acquaint themselves with winter conditions, but if they're driving skills atrophy in good weather due to self-driving car use, it will be even worse.

stcredzero 8y ago
if they're driving skills atrophy in good weather due to self-driving car use, it will be even worse. I remember driving in New Hampshire in the 80's as an undergraduate, thinking to myself, "They drive like it's winter all year!" If people only drove when it was winter, perhaps they'd drive like I drive now in middle age: to minimize the chance of collision. (As opposed to how I drove like a butthead in my 20's.) No assuming the turn signal is true. No assuming oncoming traffic will brake for you when you merge. (Unless you simply have no choice.) No merging turns unless you have first actually seen the oncoming traffic. On the whole, US drivers are too aggressive, and make too many assumptions. If people could model the behavior of autonomous vehicles, maybe they'd drive more rationally. (I'm Asian, and many would call my driving "Asian driving." I just don't think it's the smart or rational tradeoff to risk any more than you have to in the way of car damage, injury, or death just to get someplace a few minutes faster. Really, that strikes me as just plain stupid.)
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  In Iowa I like to say "Every summer Iowans quit believing in winter, and it takes them completely by surprise." The first day or two of driving in snow are a huge surge in accidents. So no, its not auto-driving cars that make winter-driving skills atrophy. Its summer that does that.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    When it rains, it can rain a lot in Houston, but it still seems to take a few drivers there by surprise every time the heavy rain comes back.
  - CharlesColeman 8y ago
    > So no, its not auto-driving cars that make winter-driving skills atrophy. Its summer that does that. My point was that summer already makes winter driving skills atrophy, but self-driving cars will make general driving skills atrophy at the same time.
- ccvannorman 8y ago
  20 year old me: "Good thing I'm an invincible F1 Driver because I am L-A-T-E!" 36 year old me: "Wow, look at all these jackbutts.. driving is stressful. Good thing I'm not in a hurry."
  - justtopost 8y ago
    Honestly its usually prepared (snow tires, good alignment) vs unprepared ('all-season' or worse, eco tires, unsure of dynamics). The unprepared people need to just stay home or call an uber for the sake of everyone else.
- SpikeDad 8y ago
  I hate so to resort to stereotypes but I live in a big college town with many asian drivers a number of which I assume are driving in the US for the first time. They are decidedly not of the stereotype that you are claiming for asian drivers - careful and slow. I stay far away from them if possible. They don't have any idea about driving in a safe manner. But like I said stereotypes fail but I had to comment on yours.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    I had a coworker from an entirely different part of Asia. I remember riding with him driving in Ohio and Indiana, no other cars visible to the horizon except for the one right in front of us, thinking, "There are no other cars for miles around. Why are you so very-very-very-close to the car in front!?" I guess some people would say I drive like an old person in Florida, or like someone from Ballard in Washington.
SpikeDad 8y ago
I was recently driving on the highway in a bad snow storm and the wet snow occluded my radar sensor and I got a warning that the adaptive cruise control was unavailable. Then my lane keeping assist cameras were blocked by snow as were the lane markers and that automation failed as well. What exactly will autonomous vehicles use to guide them in bad snow storms?
- EliRivers 8y ago
  I suspect they just won't go. If you want to travel in bad snow storms, you do it with a manual vehicle.

elipsey 8y ago

This spate of reports about performance and reliability problems for electric cars in extremely cold weather has pointed out lots of problem with reliability and reduced range. To be meaningful and useful, these really ought to include comparisons to conventional internal combustion cars. I lived in Fairbanks for a while, and I found that lots of things don’t work well when it’s -40, especially cars. I had to plug in the block heater at least a few hours in advance of starting, and then idle for at least 15 minutes before driving. A block heater and battery blanket were necessary but sometimes not sufficient. My gas mileage was reduced by about half. There were lots of cars with mechanical problems that only crop up in those conditions. Some had doors, windows, or gas doors that would freeze. Relays and (starter!) solenoids would get stuck. A few had heater cores that would would ice and stop working so the heat and window defrost were not usable. Some displays won’t work when they are cold. The manufacturers say they test for this stuff, but it was obviously not fully addressed. Don’t assume your ICE car is going to work well when it’s that cold. Nothing works right when it’s that cold. When we use things in an environment that differs greatly form that in which they were engineered and tested are bound to surprise us. Even my bike didn’t work right up there. The grease in the headset and wheel bearings got really viscous and stiff, the cables and shifters were balky, and the breaks felt funny. I actually managed to bike commute pretty often as a student, partly because it was more reliable then driving. My ski jacket was made plastic so it got really stiff and crumpley feeling like cardboard. When I got to school my phone screen didn’t work, and my laptop wouldn’t turn on until it warmed up, but the bike at least never made me late, which is more than I could say for any car.

slededit 8y ago
-40 is pretty rare for most of us, but -20c (-4 f) is not too uncommon in many parts of the mid-west. My ICE car handled the polar vortex just fine. Although any marginal parts are vastly more likely to fail, I imagine a lot of batteries were replaced.

mirimir 8y ago

Just spray with windshield washer fluid. Or straight anhydrous methanol, if you like. Windshield washer fluid for sure won't damage the finish. Methanol might, but probably not. Methanol depresses the freezing point of water at low concentration. Adding ~10% methanol to gasoline was a classic for deicing fuel lines.

Zecar 8y ago
Windshield washer fluid is generally methanol just fyi
- mirimir 8y ago
  That was the point :) But it does contain some water, and detergent. So straight methanol works better. Just don't drink it. And it's very biodegradable.

Barrin92 8y ago

Reminds me of the case of an automated soap dispenser not reliably detecting African American users. The high concentration of tech in one particular part of only a minority of countries will almost certainly lead to more of these occurrences. The concentration of production and mostly homogenous workforce involved in the process will undercut basic discovery processes that would expose these sort of design in the design process, not when the products ship out to customers.