4 ms·

Silicon Valley? The restaurant business started the model of screwing employees and paying them less. I don’t give why ever is okay with it

e1ven 8y ago
I think his point is that SV has had a lot of companies lately which ignore regulations that are inconvenient. This helps them grow when they are are small, and then when they get bigger they can either fight it in court, lobby, etc. For example, Airbnb, Uber, Lime, etc.
- dkasper 8y ago
  I think the point there was Silicon Valley is not unique in this. Many other industries have used similar tactics for years.
brlewis 8y ago
This is not up-front lower pay with the expectation of tips. This is low pay where tips effectively go to the company, not the worker. I would not be OK with it if I tipped at a restaurant and the restaurant reduced the staff's pay by the amount I tipped.
- LyndsySimon 8y ago
  If the restaurant is paying less than minimum wage - which many (perhaps most, in some areas) do - then that's exactly what's happening.
  - brlewis 8y ago
    You don't really mean "exactly what's happening". You mean "approximately what's happening, averaged across everyone's tips." Which is still not true, because people know the restaurant situation up front, while this situation goes against expectations.
    - loeg 8y ago
      No, GP was right the first time. "Server wage" is exactly this — the employer pays less than the nominal minimum wage, and tips from customers are appropriated to make up the difference.
      - brlewis 8y ago
        Server wage: Workers and customers know up front that base pay is lower. Customers expect that their tips will go to the worker in addition to base pay. This: Base pay starts low, and is reduced by the tip amount, contrary to the expectations of customers and workers. Now is it clear how they are two different things?
        loeg 8y ago
        I think you're misrepresenting server wage. To style it like your comment, server wage: Base pay starts low (minimum wage), and is reduced by the tip amount. Customers may or may not be aware that servers are paid below minimum wage and that their tips will be appropriated by the business. Businesses don't exactly advertise this.
        tkxxx7 8y ago
        yeah, but workers in a restaurant aren’t exactly having their financial expectations shattered.
        brlewis 8y ago
        I couldn't find where any law enshrined businesses appropriating tips. I googled server wage and just found https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage If there's something enshrined in law beyond a lower minimum wage for tipped workers I'm interested to know.
        tfehring 8y ago
        Say I'm a tipped worker making $3/hour in an area with a minimum wage of $10/hour. I work for an hour and don't receive any tips. My employer has to pay me $10 to comply with minimum wage laws. I work for another hour and receive $5 in tips. My employer now has to pay me $5 so that my total pay for the hour is $10. I make the same amount in wages + tips that I did in the first hour, but my employer saves $5.
- loeg 8y ago
  Wage theft of exactly the form Instacart perpetuated has existed in the restaurant industry for a long time. This is not a Silicon Valley innovation. It's even enshrined into law in some US states, known as a "server wage."

e1ven 8y ago

I think his point is that SV has had a lot of companies lately which ignore regulations that are inconvenient. This helps them grow when they are are small, and then when they get bigger they can either fight it in court, lobby, etc. For example, Airbnb, Uber, Lime, etc.

dkasper 8y ago
I think the point there was Silicon Valley is not unique in this. Many other industries have used similar tactics for years.

brlewis 8y ago

This is not up-front lower pay with the expectation of tips. This is low pay where tips effectively go to the company, not the worker. I would not be OK with it if I tipped at a restaurant and the restaurant reduced the staff's pay by the amount I tipped.

LyndsySimon 8y ago
If the restaurant is paying less than minimum wage - which many (perhaps most, in some areas) do - then that's exactly what's happening.
- brlewis 8y ago
  You don't really mean "exactly what's happening". You mean "approximately what's happening, averaged across everyone's tips." Which is still not true, because people know the restaurant situation up front, while this situation goes against expectations.
  - loeg 8y ago
    No, GP was right the first time. "Server wage" is exactly this — the employer pays less than the nominal minimum wage, and tips from customers are appropriated to make up the difference.
    - brlewis 8y ago
      Server wage: Workers and customers know up front that base pay is lower. Customers expect that their tips will go to the worker in addition to base pay. This: Base pay starts low, and is reduced by the tip amount, contrary to the expectations of customers and workers. Now is it clear how they are two different things?
      - loeg 8y ago
        I think you're misrepresenting server wage. To style it like your comment, server wage: Base pay starts low (minimum wage), and is reduced by the tip amount. Customers may or may not be aware that servers are paid below minimum wage and that their tips will be appropriated by the business. Businesses don't exactly advertise this.
        tkxxx7 8y ago
        yeah, but workers in a restaurant aren’t exactly having their financial expectations shattered.
        brlewis 8y ago
        I couldn't find where any law enshrined businesses appropriating tips. I googled server wage and just found https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage If there's something enshrined in law beyond a lower minimum wage for tipped workers I'm interested to know.
        tfehring 8y ago
        Say I'm a tipped worker making $3/hour in an area with a minimum wage of $10/hour. I work for an hour and don't receive any tips. My employer has to pay me $10 to comply with minimum wage laws. I work for another hour and receive $5 in tips. My employer now has to pay me $5 so that my total pay for the hour is $10. I make the same amount in wages + tips that I did in the first hour, but my employer saves $5.
loeg 8y ago
Wage theft of exactly the form Instacart perpetuated has existed in the restaurant industry for a long time. This is not a Silicon Valley innovation. It's even enshrined into law in some US states, known as a "server wage."