8 ms·

I've never used Instacart, but I've used GrubHub and DoorDash and the like a couple of times -- I can never remember which one I have an account for, or which o

by rconti 8y ago

I've never used Instacart, but I've used GrubHub and DoorDash and the like a couple of times -- I can never remember which one I have an account for, or which one has the restaurant I want, so it's always a hodgepodge. But one thing is clear as day. When I use DoorDash, the tip box says "100% of tip goes to Dasher". Look, I know all of these places either charge me a service fee, or if I'm not being charged a service fee, they're marking up the food over list price AND getting a discount from the restaurant for the extra volume generated by the company. FINE. But when you tell me 100% of my tip goes to the tippee and then you take money out of their pay because I tipped them, that is fraud. Money is a fungible good. It doesn't matter that "my" money went to the Dasher, and you took "your" money from them. In fact, that's not even true, because it's all in one CC transaction anyway. 100% of my tip did NOT go to the Dasher.

cannonedhamster 8y ago
This is a good point and likely going to result in a massive class action that a few of these companies don't survive.
- smt88 8y ago
  They'll survive it. The pendulum has swung far toward corporations and awards don't tend to be death sentences these days. What other company has been killed by a lawsuit lately, other than thorough frauds like for-profit colleges?
  - unknownkadath 8y ago
    Well, there's Gawker, but that's also a special case. PG&E?
- techsupporter 8y ago
  DoorDash has a mandatory arbitration clause (that I opted out of but most people don’t) so I fear the best we can hope for is a light tap from a state AG and a flimsy promise to “review our internal procedures” with no big change. It isn’t as though large numbers of people will stop using these services that deliberately abuse their “independent contractor” workers.
  - tuxxy 8y ago
    How do you arbitrarily opt out of mandatory arbitration clauses?
    - ch4ch4 8y ago
      Well, the easiest way is to just not use the service...
    - koolba 8y ago
      Per https://www.doordash.com/terms/#section12 https://www.doordash.com/terms/#section12 you have to send them an email with your account info within 30 days of signing up: > (f) Opt Out. You may opt out of this Arbitration Agreement. If you do so, neither you nor the Company can force the other to arbitrate as a result of this Agreement. To opt out, you must notify the Company in writing no later than 30 days after first becoming subject to this Arbitration Agreement. Your notice must include your name and address, your DoorDash username (if any), the email address you used to set up your DoorDash account (if you have one), and a CLEAR statement that you want to opt out of this Arbitration Agreement. You must send your opt-out notice to: opt-out@doordash.com. If you opt out of this Arbitration Agreement, all other parts of this Agreement will continue to apply to you.
      - paulgb 8y ago
        Free idea: browser extension that lights up when you visit a site with an arbitration clause and tells you how to opt out.
        mulmen 8y ago
        Bonus points, look for any opportunity to opt out at all. I get the feeling "sane defaults" are not the norm in terms of service.
        O_H_E 8y ago
        Nice one. Will save that to when I have time.
- paulgb 8y ago
  At least in the case of DoorDash, they have an arbitration clause in their TOS that effectively quashes any attempts at a class action. Hopefully one day the US justice system will wake up to the fact that allowing companies to opt-out of the main mechanism preventing them from engaging in this sort of petty-crime-at-scale is not a good idea, but until then it's what we're stuck with.
  - gamblor956 8y ago
    State attorneys general are not bound by these TOSs.
  - WrtCdEvrydy 8y ago
    I wonder if giving someone my credit card, having them add to DoorDash, then suing would be worth it. I wonder if small claims court lawsuits could be used as precedent.
    - paulgb 8y ago
      You can individually opt out of the arbitration clause, the problem is finding a critical mass of other people who opted out within the opt-out period.
  - AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
    Not unless we add another slot to the Supreme Court.
  - lightedman 8y ago
    "At least in the case of DoorDash, they have an arbitration clause in their TOS that effectively quashes any attempts at a class action." That is easily nullified in a court when it is proven to be used to hide criminal activity, specifically fraud, in this case.
  - rhizome 8y ago
    The Department of Labor didn't sign no arbitration agreement with DoorDash, and they get a raging hard-on for wage-theft cases. Management stealing tips, where people who didn't do the work but receive a portion (or more) of the tips are slam-dunk cases for them.
geoelectric 8y ago
I quit tipping on DD as soon as I found this out about a month ago because it'd almost always be less than $4.50, so wouldn't affect the dasher's bottom line anyway. If I start again it'll be cash, but I don't typically carry that in small bills. But I'm pissed. I've been a heavy DD customer for years and I'm an excellent tipper. Apparently I've been offsetting DD's costs for quite awhile now thinking "100% goes to Dasher." Bad enough that I have to tip in advance of the service--Uber Eats does this right--but they've been stealing those tips the whole time on top of their "service charge" and "delivery fee". I'd love to see them burn. It doesn't take a class action--last I saw comparative stats they were only doing well in the Bay Area, San Jose specifically, and were rock bottom of the market share elsewhere. We probably just need one educated market to trash this strategy.
- nerdponx 8y ago
  Isn't this typically the job of an Attorney General?
  - xster 8y ago
    Who is a bit busy at the moment making sure the prison population doesn't affect the prison labour supply and running for president ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I know she's not in office now. It's a joke.
    - diminoten 8y ago
      Saying inflammatory shit and then couching it in "just a joke" doesn't suddenly give you the comedian's context.
- cialowicz 8y ago
  You quit tipping, but you haven't stopped using the service?
  - rosser 8y ago
    They quit tipping through the service, and, if I'm reading correctly, instead zero the tip at checkout, and tip in cash on arrival.
eljimmy 8y ago
I tried DoorDash out for the first time recently. Gave a generous tip because the driver had to wait a while as the food took way longer to prepare. Then I started reading about DoorDash and discovered what you mentioned about tips. Immediately uninstalled, will never use them again. That is downright criminal what they're doing. Made sure to let all my friends know about that too.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
snowwrestler 8y ago
Has anyone tried treating these transactions as actually fraudulent, and asking their credit card company to investigate and reverse the charges? I've heard the card companies will sometimes be pretty aggressive on the cardholders' behalf. That said, this would probably get your account banned from whatever service you try it on.
- chrischen 8y ago
  From my experience they aren't necessarily always on your side, but for a small enough transaction they may not care. They don't investigate aggressively, rather they put the burden on doordash to prove all these small charges. That being said, technically it's not allowed as you authorized the charges and maybe didn't get 100% of what you were advertised, but I'm not sure you can get a refund for that.
  - treis 8y ago
    >didn't get 100% of what you were advertised, but I'm not sure you can get a refund for that. You can definitely get a refund for that. Realistically, DD will just refund the charges and then ban your account. Cheaper than fighting over a $15 tip, especially when disputes cost them whether they win or lose.
    - chrischen 8y ago
      Disputes cost them maybe $15-$30 but then they can automate the response so there's no loss. Also, the dispute fees are charged regardless of if they choose to fight it, so they have no reason to unless they simply haven't automated responses. While you can almost always get a refund for any small charge if you dispute it, it doesn't mean it's technically allowed by the terms, or as part of mandated laws. Laws around this generally only say the credit card company has to investigate your claims, but what they do, if anything, or how hard they "investigate" is not enforced. In practice instead of actually investigating a small $15 charge they'll just refund you. Given a large enough charge, they will definitely not refund you unless it's like a 100% indisputable billing error case (like you send an invoice you received saying $100 but the statement charge shows something else).
mc32 8y ago
This. Agreed 100%. Don’t say one thing and do another sneaky thing. That should result in such entity losing the trust of its clients. They deserve the backlash they get. One would hope they get fined as well.
gene91 8y ago
But isn't this exactly what happens when a charity allows you to specify how your donation gets used, or when a government calls for vote on a new tax that will benefit only X (e.g. education)? I don't have any proof. But I have always assumed that this is the case. I hope I'm wrong. But I don't see why a charity or a government wouldn't do this.
oh_sigh 8y ago
If the dashers need to be upped to minimum wage, it is probably true that your tip is going towards them, but it affects how much money they get from doordash
- rconti 8y ago
  Aren't they paid via 1099 (contractor basis) and thus minimum wage is meaningless anyway?
  - AlexandrB 8y ago
    Insane. Since the courts seem to agree that "gig" workers are contractors, it seems like we need a new labor movement to secure all the same benefits for contractors that employees get.
    - redblacktree 8y ago
      Perhaps a nice clear line we could draw would be individuals who are treated as 1099s. This way, companies could still use it and pay their own taxes, while defacto employees would be treated similarly to W-2s.
sjjshzvuiajhz 8y ago
I don’t think it’s fraud. Your money went to the driver, instead of DoorDash’s money. This is exactly how restaurant tipping works in much of the US. As usual, if you want the person you are tipping to keep the money you are giving them in addition to their minimum wage, better tip in cash.
- vinay427 8y ago
  I can't even count the number of people I meet that think waiters (in the state I most recently lived in) get paid less than minimum wage if they don't tip, when that's just not in compliance with the law. You raise a good point, anyway, because this happens all the time in restaurants in addition to DoorDash.
  - lovich 8y ago
    >when that's just not in compliance with the law The law doesn't magically make it happen without enforcement. People think that waiters get paid less than minimum wage because they've never met a restaurant where a boss actually follows the law and pays out minimum wage if the tips don't cover it
    - vinay427 8y ago
      Source? This seems like a pretty clear-cut lawsuit waiting to happen. I'm aware that not everyone can afford to take on legal action, but I'm skeptical that it's widespread.
      - lovich 8y ago
        https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/12/opinion/tipping-restaurants-servers-cuomo-new-york.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/12/opinion/tipping-restauran... "From this article, The Department of Labor’s wage and hour division estimated that nearly 84 percent of full-service restaurants it investigated between 2010 and 2012 had violated labor standards, including but not limited to tip violations." There isn't really anything like a clear-cut lawsuit when you don't have the money to retain a lawyer, and when the award youd get from winning isnt enough to entice a lawyer to take your case on contingency
chrischen 8y ago
To play devil's advocate, this is actually standard practice with tipped employees like waiters and waitresses. They are often paid a lower base wage because it is expected they make some of it back on tips. Tips have always been essentially a variable part of the worker's salary controlled by the customer. It's why in America it's considered basically unacceptable to not tip even though it's "optional."
- general8bitso 8y ago
  Waiters and waitresses don’t use their own vehicle amd gas to bring me my food, though.
  - chrischen 8y ago
    That's not really part of this problem though, as even if they were compensated for gas and insurance for the car, this still applies. Fundamentally, people are outraged because essentially tipping is subsidizing the wages the employer should be paying, and that's the case even with a restaurant. The issue is the tipping system. It's counterintuitive but your "generosity" with a tip, once it becomes standard cultural practice, ends up in one way or another getting nullified by the employer. And there's no real way to prevent this as the OP said, money is fungible, so if the employee gets paid more in some way it all just becomes their total earnings in the end, which saves the employer from having to make up that difference because the market price for the employee's time and labor is fixed.
    - dasil003 8y ago
      In a restaurant it’s not per transaction so it’s not directly rendering your generosity ineffectual. It’s a matter of degree and convention but not insignificant.
    - clhodapp 8y ago
      There is absolutely way to prevent this. We could enact laws to clarify that tips are between the customer and the employee and have no effect on the company's legal obligation to pay minimum wage. That is how the law actually is written in a number of states.
code_sloth 8y ago
I grew up in Asia, and never quite understood the tipping culture. Because employers aren't paying their staff a living wage, they ask their customers to tip. It all seems completely backwards to me. These scumbag startups are taking it 1 step further by taking the tips away. If you can't afford to pay your staff a living wage, your business shouldn't exist.

by rconti 8y ago

cannonedhamster 8y ago

This is a good point and likely going to result in a massive class action that a few of these companies don't survive.

smt88 8y ago
They'll survive it. The pendulum has swung far toward corporations and awards don't tend to be death sentences these days. What other company has been killed by a lawsuit lately, other than thorough frauds like for-profit colleges?
- unknownkadath 8y ago
  Well, there's Gawker, but that's also a special case. PG&E?
techsupporter 8y ago
DoorDash has a mandatory arbitration clause (that I opted out of but most people don’t) so I fear the best we can hope for is a light tap from a state AG and a flimsy promise to “review our internal procedures” with no big change. It isn’t as though large numbers of people will stop using these services that deliberately abuse their “independent contractor” workers.
- tuxxy 8y ago
  How do you arbitrarily opt out of mandatory arbitration clauses?
  - ch4ch4 8y ago
    Well, the easiest way is to just not use the service...
  - koolba 8y ago
    Per https://www.doordash.com/terms/#section12 https://www.doordash.com/terms/#section12 you have to send them an email with your account info within 30 days of signing up: > (f) Opt Out. You may opt out of this Arbitration Agreement. If you do so, neither you nor the Company can force the other to arbitrate as a result of this Agreement. To opt out, you must notify the Company in writing no later than 30 days after first becoming subject to this Arbitration Agreement. Your notice must include your name and address, your DoorDash username (if any), the email address you used to set up your DoorDash account (if you have one), and a CLEAR statement that you want to opt out of this Arbitration Agreement. You must send your opt-out notice to: opt-out@doordash.com. If you opt out of this Arbitration Agreement, all other parts of this Agreement will continue to apply to you.
    - paulgb 8y ago
      Free idea: browser extension that lights up when you visit a site with an arbitration clause and tells you how to opt out.
      - mulmen 8y ago
        Bonus points, look for any opportunity to opt out at all. I get the feeling "sane defaults" are not the norm in terms of service.
      - O_H_E 8y ago
        Nice one. Will save that to when I have time.
paulgb 8y ago
At least in the case of DoorDash, they have an arbitration clause in their TOS that effectively quashes any attempts at a class action. Hopefully one day the US justice system will wake up to the fact that allowing companies to opt-out of the main mechanism preventing them from engaging in this sort of petty-crime-at-scale is not a good idea, but until then it's what we're stuck with.
- gamblor956 8y ago
  State attorneys general are not bound by these TOSs.
- WrtCdEvrydy 8y ago
  I wonder if giving someone my credit card, having them add to DoorDash, then suing would be worth it. I wonder if small claims court lawsuits could be used as precedent.
  - paulgb 8y ago
    You can individually opt out of the arbitration clause, the problem is finding a critical mass of other people who opted out within the opt-out period.
- AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
  Not unless we add another slot to the Supreme Court.
- lightedman 8y ago
  "At least in the case of DoorDash, they have an arbitration clause in their TOS that effectively quashes any attempts at a class action." That is easily nullified in a court when it is proven to be used to hide criminal activity, specifically fraud, in this case.
- rhizome 8y ago
  The Department of Labor didn't sign no arbitration agreement with DoorDash, and they get a raging hard-on for wage-theft cases. Management stealing tips, where people who didn't do the work but receive a portion (or more) of the tips are slam-dunk cases for them.

geoelectric 8y ago

I quit tipping on DD as soon as I found this out about a month ago because it'd almost always be less than $4.50, so wouldn't affect the dasher's bottom line anyway. If I start again it'll be cash, but I don't typically carry that in small bills. But I'm pissed. I've been a heavy DD customer for years and I'm an excellent tipper. Apparently I've been offsetting DD's costs for quite awhile now thinking "100% goes to Dasher." Bad enough that I have to tip in advance of the service--Uber Eats does this right--but they've been stealing those tips the whole time on top of their "service charge" and "delivery fee". I'd love to see them burn. It doesn't take a class action--last I saw comparative stats they were only doing well in the Bay Area, San Jose specifically, and were rock bottom of the market share elsewhere. We probably just need one educated market to trash this strategy.

nerdponx 8y ago
Isn't this typically the job of an Attorney General?
- xster 8y ago
  Who is a bit busy at the moment making sure the prison population doesn't affect the prison labour supply and running for president ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I know she's not in office now. It's a joke.
  - diminoten 8y ago
    Saying inflammatory shit and then couching it in "just a joke" doesn't suddenly give you the comedian's context.
cialowicz 8y ago
You quit tipping, but you haven't stopped using the service?
- rosser 8y ago
  They quit tipping through the service, and, if I'm reading correctly, instead zero the tip at checkout, and tip in cash on arrival.

eljimmy 8y ago

I tried DoorDash out for the first time recently. Gave a generous tip because the driver had to wait a while as the food took way longer to prepare. Then I started reading about DoorDash and discovered what you mentioned about tips. Immediately uninstalled, will never use them again. That is downright criminal what they're doing. Made sure to let all my friends know about that too.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

snowwrestler 8y ago

Has anyone tried treating these transactions as actually fraudulent, and asking their credit card company to investigate and reverse the charges? I've heard the card companies will sometimes be pretty aggressive on the cardholders' behalf. That said, this would probably get your account banned from whatever service you try it on.

chrischen 8y ago
From my experience they aren't necessarily always on your side, but for a small enough transaction they may not care. They don't investigate aggressively, rather they put the burden on doordash to prove all these small charges. That being said, technically it's not allowed as you authorized the charges and maybe didn't get 100% of what you were advertised, but I'm not sure you can get a refund for that.
- treis 8y ago
  >didn't get 100% of what you were advertised, but I'm not sure you can get a refund for that. You can definitely get a refund for that. Realistically, DD will just refund the charges and then ban your account. Cheaper than fighting over a $15 tip, especially when disputes cost them whether they win or lose.
  - chrischen 8y ago
    Disputes cost them maybe $15-$30 but then they can automate the response so there's no loss. Also, the dispute fees are charged regardless of if they choose to fight it, so they have no reason to unless they simply haven't automated responses. While you can almost always get a refund for any small charge if you dispute it, it doesn't mean it's technically allowed by the terms, or as part of mandated laws. Laws around this generally only say the credit card company has to investigate your claims, but what they do, if anything, or how hard they "investigate" is not enforced. In practice instead of actually investigating a small $15 charge they'll just refund you. Given a large enough charge, they will definitely not refund you unless it's like a 100% indisputable billing error case (like you send an invoice you received saying $100 but the statement charge shows something else).

mc32 8y ago

This. Agreed 100%. Don’t say one thing and do another sneaky thing. That should result in such entity losing the trust of its clients. They deserve the backlash they get. One would hope they get fined as well.

gene91 8y ago

But isn't this exactly what happens when a charity allows you to specify how your donation gets used, or when a government calls for vote on a new tax that will benefit only X (e.g. education)? I don't have any proof. But I have always assumed that this is the case. I hope I'm wrong. But I don't see why a charity or a government wouldn't do this.

oh_sigh 8y ago

If the dashers need to be upped to minimum wage, it is probably true that your tip is going towards them, but it affects how much money they get from doordash

rconti 8y ago
Aren't they paid via 1099 (contractor basis) and thus minimum wage is meaningless anyway?
- AlexandrB 8y ago
  Insane. Since the courts seem to agree that "gig" workers are contractors, it seems like we need a new labor movement to secure all the same benefits for contractors that employees get.
  - redblacktree 8y ago
    Perhaps a nice clear line we could draw would be individuals who are treated as 1099s. This way, companies could still use it and pay their own taxes, while defacto employees would be treated similarly to W-2s.

sjjshzvuiajhz 8y ago

I don’t think it’s fraud. Your money went to the driver, instead of DoorDash’s money. This is exactly how restaurant tipping works in much of the US. As usual, if you want the person you are tipping to keep the money you are giving them in addition to their minimum wage, better tip in cash.

vinay427 8y ago
I can't even count the number of people I meet that think waiters (in the state I most recently lived in) get paid less than minimum wage if they don't tip, when that's just not in compliance with the law. You raise a good point, anyway, because this happens all the time in restaurants in addition to DoorDash.
- lovich 8y ago
  >when that's just not in compliance with the law The law doesn't magically make it happen without enforcement. People think that waiters get paid less than minimum wage because they've never met a restaurant where a boss actually follows the law and pays out minimum wage if the tips don't cover it
  - vinay427 8y ago
    Source? This seems like a pretty clear-cut lawsuit waiting to happen. I'm aware that not everyone can afford to take on legal action, but I'm skeptical that it's widespread.
    - lovich 8y ago
      https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/12/opinion/tipping-restaurants-servers-cuomo-new-york.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/12/opinion/tipping-restauran... "From this article, The Department of Labor’s wage and hour division estimated that nearly 84 percent of full-service restaurants it investigated between 2010 and 2012 had violated labor standards, including but not limited to tip violations." There isn't really anything like a clear-cut lawsuit when you don't have the money to retain a lawyer, and when the award youd get from winning isnt enough to entice a lawyer to take your case on contingency

chrischen 8y ago

To play devil's advocate, this is actually standard practice with tipped employees like waiters and waitresses. They are often paid a lower base wage because it is expected they make some of it back on tips. Tips have always been essentially a variable part of the worker's salary controlled by the customer. It's why in America it's considered basically unacceptable to not tip even though it's "optional."

general8bitso 8y ago
Waiters and waitresses don’t use their own vehicle amd gas to bring me my food, though.
- chrischen 8y ago
  That's not really part of this problem though, as even if they were compensated for gas and insurance for the car, this still applies. Fundamentally, people are outraged because essentially tipping is subsidizing the wages the employer should be paying, and that's the case even with a restaurant. The issue is the tipping system. It's counterintuitive but your "generosity" with a tip, once it becomes standard cultural practice, ends up in one way or another getting nullified by the employer. And there's no real way to prevent this as the OP said, money is fungible, so if the employee gets paid more in some way it all just becomes their total earnings in the end, which saves the employer from having to make up that difference because the market price for the employee's time and labor is fixed.
  - dasil003 8y ago
    In a restaurant it’s not per transaction so it’s not directly rendering your generosity ineffectual. It’s a matter of degree and convention but not insignificant.
  - clhodapp 8y ago
    There is absolutely way to prevent this. We could enact laws to clarify that tips are between the customer and the employee and have no effect on the company's legal obligation to pay minimum wage. That is how the law actually is written in a number of states.

code_sloth 8y ago

I grew up in Asia, and never quite understood the tipping culture. Because employers aren't paying their staff a living wage, they ask their customers to tip. It all seems completely backwards to me. These scumbag startups are taking it 1 step further by taking the tips away. If you can't afford to pay your staff a living wage, your business shouldn't exist.