6 ms·

"Let the kids leave sophomore year, or even earlier. Let them go to trade schools." Germany does this.

Broken_Hippo 8y ago
I think Norway has a similar program. 16 year olds go to school - it can be trade school or continuing education for university prep (or both, depending). It also isn't mandatory, even though most folks go.
- Thlom 8y ago
  Yes. Unfortunately trade school looks more and more like regular high school these days and apprenticeships in many trades is I low supply. :-(
  - hinkley 8y ago
    Do you think there's a way we could run apprenticeships that makes them more attractive to adults seeking to retrain? I wonder sometimes how much of the problem with switching careers comes down to the usual scapegoat - lack of humility - and how much of it comes instead from infantilizing the students. If we're going to keep moving the workforce around every 15 years then we need a way for someone^W most people to comfortably have 3-4 fairly distinct careers in their lifetime.
    - hajile 8y ago
      Worked construction when I was younger. If you're in the electrical Union, you'll easily make 60k per year (even in southern States where average family incomes are often under 40k). After a few years, making over 100k is very possible. In addition, the benefits and retirement are very good. But you'll be putting in 50-60 hour weeks in the cold and heat. On the bright side, the work isn't as physically demanding as some other jobs. I've pitched the idea to a bunch of friends who seem to have an aptitude. They'd all rather with as delivery boys, waiters, or whatever low end job. They don't want a "dirty job". They want to hold out for an easy money desk job. Screw working in the cold, I'll just stick with my $7.25/he job.
- hinkley 8y ago
  Can we just go ahead and split computer programming into vocational and science-based tracks while we're at it? There are a lot of people who can or could stitch together existing libraries to accomplish results. There are a lot fewer people (than are currently participating) who have any business writing those libraries in the first place. My hope is that if we just acknowledged the difference in these two problem domains we might get more quality over quantity in the places where it really matters.
  - baroffoos 8y ago
    We already do. Its called junior web development. Which most of the time just involves installing wordpress plugins.
  - dagw 8y ago
    Sweden does this. You can either go to university and get a Computer Science or Computer Engineering degree in 3-5 years or go to vocational school and get a programming diploma in 1-2 years.
  - stereographic 8y ago
    The college I went to in Eastern Canada does this, I'm employed after a two year diploma based program, rather than a 4 year CS degree
citilife 8y ago
The U.S. has this, many Highschools have trade programs. You're still "technically" in school you spend your Junior and Senior year at a trade school and often working / making money. Unfortunately, this is only true for places with trade schools nearby. I grew up outside of Chicago and every school had this option.
2019ideas 8y ago
Looking back at my education, Precalc and English were me 2 most useful classes. "Science" "engineering" and "history" were actually useless. If you were going to get further education, college science eclipses HS science in 1 semester. My Engineering class was the most absurd, it wasn't engineering. History was basically propaganda. High school needs to end sooner. AP classes are the sign of this.
- Verdex 8y ago
  For a long time I have had the opinion that science classes are really history classes and not conducive to actually performing science, unless the students are really paying attention AND highly motivated. Here is a thing someone discovered at one point in time. Here is the conclusion. Now do this experiment. You didn't get the right answer? Do it again until you do. Or make up an answer that you think is right enough that you'll get credit. Sure, some people probably figure out what you're supposed to be learning, but I suspect most people just figure out that you should listen to authority and parrot what they expect you to say.
  - hinkley 8y ago
    I was in the circle of friends that contained our high school valedictorian. She gave her real commencement speech in the lunch room, to us, because she wanted to say things fairly close to what you just did, and the school wasn't having it.
- danbolt 8y ago
  What do you feel made your history course propaganda? Looking back at my Canadian (BC) high school history curriculum, it was well-sourced and written, but I think it could have been structured in such a way to encourage youth to understand modern politics better.
  - soperj 8y ago
    Where did you go to school? Mine (Victoria - Social Studies) was a joke. Literally the same Canadian history lessons over and over, they didn't even get into anything recent, nothing past the second world war.
walshemj 8y ago
And that mostly locks you into a certain constrained career path. Having being shoved down that path in the UK due to dyslexia it does have its downside lots of bright kids where sent to secondary modern schools and left at 16 to work down the pits etc.
- frosted-flakes 8y ago
  I agree with you. It's tough for many kids to figure out where they fit in in life, and I don't think setting that fork in the road too early is necessarily a good idea. Rather, I think it would be better to expose kids to what careers exist so they are able to make that decision when the time comes. Myself, I left high school with high marks but no direction. I went to university for computer science the next fall, not because I knew that CS was for me, but because my brother went through the same program and I didn't know what else to do. That only lasted one semester, but six years on, after working various jobs and getting a college diploma in Graphic Design, I've landed on web design and development as a career. I had no idea this kind of work existed when I was in high school.
glial 8y ago
Australia does this too, at least in the ACT. It’s fantastic.
sn41 8y ago
I think this is one of the reasons why people in Germany are so highly technically skilled. In India where I live (this is the same pretty much in all of Asia - r.g. China, S. Korea, Japan) students have to go through nightmarish entrance exams at the age of 17. I've often felt that students here don't have a feel for science, for us it's been just another hurdle to cross with 100 percent marks. This sense of enforced labor persists long into adulthood, and you lose a sense of enjoyment.

I think Norway has a similar program. 16 year olds go to school - it can be trade school or continuing education for university prep (or both, depending). It also isn't mandatory, even though most folks go.

Thlom 8y ago
Yes. Unfortunately trade school looks more and more like regular high school these days and apprenticeships in many trades is I low supply. :-(
- hinkley 8y ago
  Do you think there's a way we could run apprenticeships that makes them more attractive to adults seeking to retrain? I wonder sometimes how much of the problem with switching careers comes down to the usual scapegoat - lack of humility - and how much of it comes instead from infantilizing the students. If we're going to keep moving the workforce around every 15 years then we need a way for someone^W most people to comfortably have 3-4 fairly distinct careers in their lifetime.
  - hajile 8y ago
    Worked construction when I was younger. If you're in the electrical Union, you'll easily make 60k per year (even in southern States where average family incomes are often under 40k). After a few years, making over 100k is very possible. In addition, the benefits and retirement are very good. But you'll be putting in 50-60 hour weeks in the cold and heat. On the bright side, the work isn't as physically demanding as some other jobs. I've pitched the idea to a bunch of friends who seem to have an aptitude. They'd all rather with as delivery boys, waiters, or whatever low end job. They don't want a "dirty job". They want to hold out for an easy money desk job. Screw working in the cold, I'll just stick with my $7.25/he job.
hinkley 8y ago
Can we just go ahead and split computer programming into vocational and science-based tracks while we're at it? There are a lot of people who can or could stitch together existing libraries to accomplish results. There are a lot fewer people (than are currently participating) who have any business writing those libraries in the first place. My hope is that if we just acknowledged the difference in these two problem domains we might get more quality over quantity in the places where it really matters.
- baroffoos 8y ago
  We already do. Its called junior web development. Which most of the time just involves installing wordpress plugins.
- dagw 8y ago
  Sweden does this. You can either go to university and get a Computer Science or Computer Engineering degree in 3-5 years or go to vocational school and get a programming diploma in 1-2 years.
- stereographic 8y ago
  The college I went to in Eastern Canada does this, I'm employed after a two year diploma based program, rather than a 4 year CS degree

citilife 8y ago

The U.S. has this, many Highschools have trade programs. You're still "technically" in school you spend your Junior and Senior year at a trade school and often working / making money. Unfortunately, this is only true for places with trade schools nearby. I grew up outside of Chicago and every school had this option.

2019ideas 8y ago

Looking back at my education, Precalc and English were me 2 most useful classes. "Science" "engineering" and "history" were actually useless. If you were going to get further education, college science eclipses HS science in 1 semester. My Engineering class was the most absurd, it wasn't engineering. History was basically propaganda. High school needs to end sooner. AP classes are the sign of this.

Verdex 8y ago
For a long time I have had the opinion that science classes are really history classes and not conducive to actually performing science, unless the students are really paying attention AND highly motivated. Here is a thing someone discovered at one point in time. Here is the conclusion. Now do this experiment. You didn't get the right answer? Do it again until you do. Or make up an answer that you think is right enough that you'll get credit. Sure, some people probably figure out what you're supposed to be learning, but I suspect most people just figure out that you should listen to authority and parrot what they expect you to say.
- hinkley 8y ago
  I was in the circle of friends that contained our high school valedictorian. She gave her real commencement speech in the lunch room, to us, because she wanted to say things fairly close to what you just did, and the school wasn't having it.
danbolt 8y ago
What do you feel made your history course propaganda? Looking back at my Canadian (BC) high school history curriculum, it was well-sourced and written, but I think it could have been structured in such a way to encourage youth to understand modern politics better.
- soperj 8y ago
  Where did you go to school? Mine (Victoria - Social Studies) was a joke. Literally the same Canadian history lessons over and over, they didn't even get into anything recent, nothing past the second world war.

walshemj 8y ago

And that mostly locks you into a certain constrained career path. Having being shoved down that path in the UK due to dyslexia it does have its downside lots of bright kids where sent to secondary modern schools and left at 16 to work down the pits etc.

frosted-flakes 8y ago
I agree with you. It's tough for many kids to figure out where they fit in in life, and I don't think setting that fork in the road too early is necessarily a good idea. Rather, I think it would be better to expose kids to what careers exist so they are able to make that decision when the time comes. Myself, I left high school with high marks but no direction. I went to university for computer science the next fall, not because I knew that CS was for me, but because my brother went through the same program and I didn't know what else to do. That only lasted one semester, but six years on, after working various jobs and getting a college diploma in Graphic Design, I've landed on web design and development as a career. I had no idea this kind of work existed when I was in high school.

glial 8y ago

Australia does this too, at least in the ACT. It’s fantastic.

sn41 8y ago

I think this is one of the reasons why people in Germany are so highly technically skilled. In India where I live (this is the same pretty much in all of Asia - r.g. China, S. Korea, Japan) students have to go through nightmarish entrance exams at the age of 17. I've often felt that students here don't have a feel for science, for us it's been just another hurdle to cross with 100 percent marks. This sense of enforced labor persists long into adulthood, and you lose a sense of enjoyment.