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This is not the "first step" way to get started, which is why it's at the bottom of the page. Leiningen is not any easier to install and use than what's already

This is not the "first step" way to get started, which is why it's at the bottom of the page. Leiningen is not any easier to install and use than what's already there at the top of the page as the recommended path.

cmiles74 8y ago
It looks like we disagree on this. It's unclear to me why only Linux or MacOS developers should be covered by the "first step" way to getting started. In any case, why not remove the Maven example? It's weird to see Maven promoted over tools like Leiningen and Boot. In my opinion, the "first step" should cover all three operating systems as Leningen or Boot already does (and as the getting started page admits).
- puredanger 8y ago
  Windows clj is a work in progress and the page will be updated when it's ready. So, it will. The Maven example is a way to get a standalone local-only (spec libs included) jar. Some people do this (it seems weird to me, but people do). Leiningen and Boot are not official tools and are more than you need to get started (excepting the Windows caveat, which is a small portion of the Clojure user base that will be plugged, hopefully soon).
- ilikehurdles 8y ago
  Because most development happens on Linux and MacOS systems, and most services deployed run on Linux. Even languages that make the sdk installation easy, the rest of the ecosystem of packages and tooling often considers windows a second class citizen (thinking here of node.js and ruby at least). If you have limited resources it makes sense to target the biggest group of users first.
dmitriid 8y ago
Let's say I'm a beginner. I've installed Clojure following the instructions on that page. Now what? Neither "Learn Clojure" nor "Programming in REPL" even mention how to run it. I'm assuming you need to just type `clojure` in the shell (I'm only assuming this because I have experience with other languages that allow this, neither Java no C/C++ have this)? "Learn Clojure" has a bunch of examples before it even gets to REPL. I guess I can run them? Somewhere? The there's the "Programming at the REPL" section and... Then what? How do I start a project? How do I create a program? How do I compile and build a project? Run it? Test it? Configure it? Where is all that?
- puredanger 8y ago
  The link near the top to "command line tools" (https://clojure.org/guides/deps_and_cli https://clojure.org/guides/deps_and_cli) is probably the next logical step but maybe could be highlighted better. If you want to leave some comments on an issue at https://github.com/clojure/clojure-site/issues https://github.com/clojure/clojure-site/issues - that's a great place for me to take actionable feedback. Fully learning the language, the tools, and how to make a project are all different topics, and have their own interactions with whatever other tooling they are using. I think a lot of that is there but I'll take your point that they aren't guided well enough. Definitely worth taking a few more passes, thanks.
  - dmitriid 8y ago
    > probably the next logical step but maybe could be highlighted better It's definitely not a "next logical step". A next logical step is "create, test, and deploy a clojure program". For some reason these important topics are given a total of maybe 5 paragraphs inside a section on CLI tools? > I think a lot of that is there but I'll take your point that they aren't guided well enough "A lot is there" is a total of two paragraphs on writing a program outside of REPL, a total of two paragraphs not even on testing but on how to include a test directory. And that's it. As a beginner I wouldn't even know where to look for this (Google is often not enough). Clojurescript is slightly better in this regard. At least after the quick start guide I have some understanding on what goes there. I may open an issue if I don't forget tomorrow :D
    - puredanger 8y ago
      I appreciate the feedback.
      - dmitriid 8y ago
        It took me a while to remember my promise :) https://github.com/clojure/clojure-site/issues/356 https://github.com/clojure/clojure-site/issues/356

cmiles74 8y ago

It looks like we disagree on this. It's unclear to me why only Linux or MacOS developers should be covered by the "first step" way to getting started. In any case, why not remove the Maven example? It's weird to see Maven promoted over tools like Leiningen and Boot. In my opinion, the "first step" should cover all three operating systems as Leningen or Boot already does (and as the getting started page admits).

puredanger 8y ago
Windows clj is a work in progress and the page will be updated when it's ready. So, it will. The Maven example is a way to get a standalone local-only (spec libs included) jar. Some people do this (it seems weird to me, but people do). Leiningen and Boot are not official tools and are more than you need to get started (excepting the Windows caveat, which is a small portion of the Clojure user base that will be plugged, hopefully soon).
ilikehurdles 8y ago
Because most development happens on Linux and MacOS systems, and most services deployed run on Linux. Even languages that make the sdk installation easy, the rest of the ecosystem of packages and tooling often considers windows a second class citizen (thinking here of node.js and ruby at least). If you have limited resources it makes sense to target the biggest group of users first.

dmitriid 8y ago

Let's say I'm a beginner. I've installed Clojure following the instructions on that page. Now what? Neither "Learn Clojure" nor "Programming in REPL" even mention how to run it. I'm assuming you need to just type `clojure` in the shell (I'm only assuming this because I have experience with other languages that allow this, neither Java no C/C++ have this)? "Learn Clojure" has a bunch of examples before it even gets to REPL. I guess I can run them? Somewhere? The there's the "Programming at the REPL" section and... Then what? How do I start a project? How do I create a program? How do I compile and build a project? Run it? Test it? Configure it? Where is all that?

puredanger 8y ago
The link near the top to "command line tools" (https://clojure.org/guides/deps_and_cli https://clojure.org/guides/deps_and_cli) is probably the next logical step but maybe could be highlighted better. If you want to leave some comments on an issue at https://github.com/clojure/clojure-site/issues https://github.com/clojure/clojure-site/issues - that's a great place for me to take actionable feedback. Fully learning the language, the tools, and how to make a project are all different topics, and have their own interactions with whatever other tooling they are using. I think a lot of that is there but I'll take your point that they aren't guided well enough. Definitely worth taking a few more passes, thanks.
- dmitriid 8y ago
  > probably the next logical step but maybe could be highlighted better It's definitely not a "next logical step". A next logical step is "create, test, and deploy a clojure program". For some reason these important topics are given a total of maybe 5 paragraphs inside a section on CLI tools? > I think a lot of that is there but I'll take your point that they aren't guided well enough "A lot is there" is a total of two paragraphs on writing a program outside of REPL, a total of two paragraphs not even on testing but on how to include a test directory. And that's it. As a beginner I wouldn't even know where to look for this (Google is often not enough). Clojurescript is slightly better in this regard. At least after the quick start guide I have some understanding on what goes there. I may open an issue if I don't forget tomorrow :D
  - puredanger 8y ago
    I appreciate the feedback.
    - dmitriid 8y ago
      It took me a while to remember my promise :) https://github.com/clojure/clojure-site/issues/356 https://github.com/clojure/clojure-site/issues/356