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Patreon will fail and thankfully it will be purely down to the marketplace. You see the marketplace does not have the same ideology as Patreon. > More than $1

Patreon will fail and thankfully it will be purely down to the marketplace. You see the marketplace does not have the same ideology as Patreon. > More than $1 billion will be paid out to creators since the company's inception in 2013. Patreon does not pay out (it's own money) to creators, although they act like they do. They are merely a middle man. That's it. However, Patreon sees themselves as some sort of moral compass policing the internet and choosing whether or not to payout to a creator whether or not they have broken their terms of service. Now that other competitors like bitPatreon and SubscribeStar have come into view and actively taking payments on-behalf of creators that would otherwise not be allowed to under Patreon. This will be seen as the start of a shift for creators overall. One last thing. Last I heard, Patreon has over 140 employees. Seriously, for what. Fraud should be down to Stripe. Paying out, again to Stripe. Their platform could be built over a week using Vue. Oh right, those 140 employees. It's for policing the content creators... I gotcha. Needless to say. I'm not happy about this situation. Maybe I'll do something about it.

mac_was 8y ago
If you know how to run a company which raises 1 billion, why not set up your own? :) Jokes aside, once you become such a big company it is not as easy as we might think, these are investors money, not your company, and you do what they say...
- no1youknowz 8y ago
  > these are investors money, not your company, and you do what they say... 100% agreed.
- ric2b 8y ago
  It didn't raise 1B, it processed 1B in payments since inception.
Nursie 8y ago
So what content creators have been denied service?
- normal_man 8y ago
  Nazis, which is apparently a problem for OP
  - mschuster91 8y ago
    > Nazis, which is apparently a problem for OP And unfortunately for many of his fellow Americans. Unlike many Europeans, where the Nazism horror actually took place, followed with Soviet/GDR dictatorship in Eastern Europe, the American culture never has had to suffer on their own space from the real life consequences of totally unrestricted "free speech", except for a couple hundred victims of right-wing terrorism. The right to free speech actually originated in Europe ("I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"), but European societies adjusted their view after having to endure two devastating world wars. We do have the problem that the post-WW2 position "Nazism and xenophobia is evil and its supporters should be exiled from democratic discourse and society" is slowly tearing apart, but mostly it's still supported. It's a fundamental difference in political culture and I am not sure if that can ever be solved. To my (European) view most if not all Americans see the right to "free speech" so held highly that even liberal organizations such as the ACLU keep on defending outright Nazis.
    - normal_man 8y ago
      I think considering it an actual belief in "free speech" is giving them too much credit. It's a shield the hateful hide behind, that's all. The people screaming loudest about free speech are more than happy to shut down the rights of others.
      - colpabar 8y ago
        > The people screaming loudest about free speech are more than happy to shut down the rights of others. Do you have an example of this?
        belltaco 8y ago
SolaceQuantum 8y ago
The vast majority of Patreon's user base (the artists getting patronage) are not producing anything that would get booted off of Patreon for. In order to compete, bitPatreon and SubscribeStar will have to compete on attracting Patreon's artists off Patreon. (FTR, I'm mildly certain that many artists on Patreon might even find the policing of the Patreon platform to be a positive, because it means their name isn't associated with the names of people they find reprehensible. I'm concerned that alternatives such as bitPatreon and SubscribeStar will quickly gain the reputation of being a platform for people whose beliefs are considered reprehensible elsewhere, which automatically makes it difficult to market those alternatives.)
- pavelludiq 8y ago
  "Our service is where we make sure only good guys are, our competition is only used by literal child eating nazis" No cartel in mankinds history has enjoyed this type of competitive advantage, good job SV :)
- bluGill 8y ago
  But some of those artists are rightly concerned that Patreon has that kind of power. I don't want the phone company to restrict who I can call, even if I never would call the "criminals" they block me from calling. There are others who are supporters of the banned topic even though their particular bit of art doesn't actually have anything to do with the banned topic. I don't know how many will leave, but I don't like the idea of a company choosing morality and so I won't support anyone on patreon. If an artists wants my support they won't get it on Patreon (fair notice, so far I have not supported any artists in other ways - who knwos if this will change)
  - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
    I'm not arguing for or against censorship in any particular manner. Merely that if SubscribeStar/bitPatreon want to compete with Patreon they will have to appeal to more than freedom of speech moral stance, since the majority of Patreon's artists are already either within Patreon's moral stance, benefit from the moral stance, or do not apply to this matter entirely.
Tsubasachan 8y ago
I can transfer €10 from my bank account to any European bank account at no cost in real time. You can't really do that in the US so Patreon has to exist. Like the only alternative is mailing a check. And god only knows when a world wide banking system will be realized.
- PavlovsCat 8y ago
  Then why don't at least people in the EU simply get a bank account for such donations? Outside of charities, I don't recall seeing that on websites or elsewhere, really. Why is that? Did it just not occur to anyone yet, or is it maybe a legally thorny issue? How do banks feel about it? I sometimes wonder about this, and I assume there's gotta be reasons, but I don't actually know.
  - dwild 8y ago
    There's clearly multiple valid reason not to: - Donations can come from all over the world. - It's easier to simply subscribe on Patreon while you are already logged in, than doing the 4-5 steps necessaries to do a bank transfer (there's a reason Amazon invested so much into 1 click ordering, the least friction you get, the more transactions you get). - A subscription is also recurrent, which represent much more money (I'm sure most bank allow recurrent transfer, but it's a choice and not the default one). - Patreon allow "private" publication to the one that donate, which allow them to offer incentive to donate (mostly it's early access or exclusive content).
- bjoli 8y ago
  How? I am stuck with 3 days for international transfers unless I use a 3rd party service with sketchy terms of use.
  - Tsubasachan 8y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area
conradfr 8y ago
Devs and devops/sysadmin, HR, accounting, marketing & product, cleaning staff maybe, sales, support (international I would guess so more people), managers, headcount can grow fast. Of course as developers we think that a lot of those other positions are unnecessary :)

mac_was 8y ago

If you know how to run a company which raises 1 billion, why not set up your own? :) Jokes aside, once you become such a big company it is not as easy as we might think, these are investors money, not your company, and you do what they say...

no1youknowz 8y ago
> these are investors money, not your company, and you do what they say... 100% agreed.
ric2b 8y ago
It didn't raise 1B, it processed 1B in payments since inception.

Nursie 8y ago

So what content creators have been denied service?

normal_man 8y ago
Nazis, which is apparently a problem for OP
- mschuster91 8y ago
  > Nazis, which is apparently a problem for OP And unfortunately for many of his fellow Americans. Unlike many Europeans, where the Nazism horror actually took place, followed with Soviet/GDR dictatorship in Eastern Europe, the American culture never has had to suffer on their own space from the real life consequences of totally unrestricted "free speech", except for a couple hundred victims of right-wing terrorism. The right to free speech actually originated in Europe ("I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"), but European societies adjusted their view after having to endure two devastating world wars. We do have the problem that the post-WW2 position "Nazism and xenophobia is evil and its supporters should be exiled from democratic discourse and society" is slowly tearing apart, but mostly it's still supported. It's a fundamental difference in political culture and I am not sure if that can ever be solved. To my (European) view most if not all Americans see the right to "free speech" so held highly that even liberal organizations such as the ACLU keep on defending outright Nazis.
  - normal_man 8y ago
    I think considering it an actual belief in "free speech" is giving them too much credit. It's a shield the hateful hide behind, that's all. The people screaming loudest about free speech are more than happy to shut down the rights of others.
    - colpabar 8y ago
      > The people screaming loudest about free speech are more than happy to shut down the rights of others. Do you have an example of this?
      - belltaco 8y ago

SolaceQuantum 8y ago

The vast majority of Patreon's user base (the artists getting patronage) are not producing anything that would get booted off of Patreon for. In order to compete, bitPatreon and SubscribeStar will have to compete on attracting Patreon's artists off Patreon. (FTR, I'm mildly certain that many artists on Patreon might even find the policing of the Patreon platform to be a positive, because it means their name isn't associated with the names of people they find reprehensible. I'm concerned that alternatives such as bitPatreon and SubscribeStar will quickly gain the reputation of being a platform for people whose beliefs are considered reprehensible elsewhere, which automatically makes it difficult to market those alternatives.)

pavelludiq 8y ago
"Our service is where we make sure only good guys are, our competition is only used by literal child eating nazis" No cartel in mankinds history has enjoyed this type of competitive advantage, good job SV :)
bluGill 8y ago
But some of those artists are rightly concerned that Patreon has that kind of power. I don't want the phone company to restrict who I can call, even if I never would call the "criminals" they block me from calling. There are others who are supporters of the banned topic even though their particular bit of art doesn't actually have anything to do with the banned topic. I don't know how many will leave, but I don't like the idea of a company choosing morality and so I won't support anyone on patreon. If an artists wants my support they won't get it on Patreon (fair notice, so far I have not supported any artists in other ways - who knwos if this will change)
- SolaceQuantum 8y ago
  I'm not arguing for or against censorship in any particular manner. Merely that if SubscribeStar/bitPatreon want to compete with Patreon they will have to appeal to more than freedom of speech moral stance, since the majority of Patreon's artists are already either within Patreon's moral stance, benefit from the moral stance, or do not apply to this matter entirely.

Tsubasachan 8y ago

I can transfer €10 from my bank account to any European bank account at no cost in real time. You can't really do that in the US so Patreon has to exist. Like the only alternative is mailing a check. And god only knows when a world wide banking system will be realized.

PavlovsCat 8y ago
Then why don't at least people in the EU simply get a bank account for such donations? Outside of charities, I don't recall seeing that on websites or elsewhere, really. Why is that? Did it just not occur to anyone yet, or is it maybe a legally thorny issue? How do banks feel about it? I sometimes wonder about this, and I assume there's gotta be reasons, but I don't actually know.
- dwild 8y ago
  There's clearly multiple valid reason not to: - Donations can come from all over the world. - It's easier to simply subscribe on Patreon while you are already logged in, than doing the 4-5 steps necessaries to do a bank transfer (there's a reason Amazon invested so much into 1 click ordering, the least friction you get, the more transactions you get). - A subscription is also recurrent, which represent much more money (I'm sure most bank allow recurrent transfer, but it's a choice and not the default one). - Patreon allow "private" publication to the one that donate, which allow them to offer incentive to donate (mostly it's early access or exclusive content).
bjoli 8y ago
How? I am stuck with 3 days for international transfers unless I use a 3rd party service with sketchy terms of use.
- Tsubasachan 8y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area

conradfr 8y ago

Devs and devops/sysadmin, HR, accounting, marketing & product, cleaning staff maybe, sales, support (international I would guess so more people), managers, headcount can grow fast. Of course as developers we think that a lot of those other positions are unnecessary :)