4 ms·

I'm always puzzled with the fact that people search for surrogate solutions instead of pursuing the real issue. If you don't feel well there is so much you can

I'm always puzzled with the fact that people search for surrogate solutions instead of pursuing the real issue. If you don't feel well there is so much you can do. Make serious effort in making friends, join a sports club or something else you like, solve long running conflicts with other people, don't over- or under achieve on a level which doesn't fit you (school/work), be proud with the things you accomplish instead of never being satisfied, etc... Perhaps it just seems easier to buy another self-help book, and take a mindfulness class.

samdoidge 8y ago
I agree problems need to be tackled at the source, but some self-help books may help you deal with the problem. 12 Rules for Life is one such book.
- FrankyHollywood 8y ago
  yes you're right, some books can really be insightful, I've read some myself :) Unfortunately I see people around me who drown in the therapy/self-help circuit. A lot of money is involved, and they keep running in circles. It seems to become a self fulfilling prophecy. If you spend to much time reflecting on your life, it becomes part of your life which prevents you from really living. Before saying anymore clichés I'll stop, and go do something :)
- faceplanted 8y ago
  12 Rules for life is a complete mess of strangely used bible quotes, misattributed and misquoted philosophers, at one point blatant rape apology, and an obvious lack of empathy from the author throughout. But one thing is does do well that I wish people would focus on over the obvious shortcomings of the author and why nothing has really replaced it yet is that it tells you in no uncertain terms that if you want to go anywhere or have any confidence in yourself you have to acknowledge that you live in a system that isn't always fair and try to make it work for you, paralysis will get you nowhere.
  - samdoidge 8y ago
    > 12 Rules for life is a complete mess of strangely used bible quotes, misattributed and misquoted philosophers Can you be more specific with the misquoted and misattributed philosophers?
    - mayniac 8y ago
      Not specific to philosophers, but Contrapoints has a good breakdown of why the term "postmodern neo-marxists", which JBP uses a number of times throughout the book, shows a complete misunderstanding of modern philosophy. [1] Not related to 12 rules, but Cuck Philosophy goes into JBP's lectures where he references postmodernism and again appears to completely misunderstand the fundamentals. [2] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LqZdkkBDas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LqZdkkBDas (probably NSFW) [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU1LhcEh8Ms https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU1LhcEh8Ms
growlist 8y ago
But hang on - there ARE serious problems in our society, culture and economy that need solving, and wishing them away or cloaking yourself in a blanket of warm feelings isn't going to change them, is it?
- nightcracker 8y ago
  It is going to solve acute problem of you personally being negatively affected by stress.
  - geggam 8y ago
    Yet evolution teaches us that humans are hardwired to learn from negative events. In fact positive events tend to create addictions... or religions.
grumdan 8y ago
I would see it the other way around: To me the real issue is that our minds have a tendency to create a lot of unnecessary stress for ourselves and make us focus on goals that are unlikely to produce any lasting happiness, like constantly striving for new achievements. Meditation, at least some forms of it, are attacking this particular problem at the source and try to help people let go of these mental habits. I get the converse feeling that hobbies / meeting up with friends / putting a lot of effort into work are engaging, but they also feel like pleasant distractions instead of addressing what I see as the real underlying issue. This is highly subjective and depends on on what ones wants to do with one's life, but meditation certainly isn't a surrogate solution to me.
DanBC 8y ago
Mental ill health is a leading cause of death worldwide. It leads to more years lost to disabiity than anything else. It's a significant cause of absence from work. If the cure was so fucking simple don't you think people would have tried it? The worst thing about HN is people who do not know what they're talking about chipping in with their facile half-witted suggestions for what they reckon.
- fdggdfsvscvsd 8y ago
  But "practicing mindfulness" is suggesting the cure is easy (pretty sure the science is shaky, at least positive thinking isn't proven to work?). Actually working on issues might work better, and might also not be easy.
  - rsynnott 8y ago
    There's a good bit of evidence that MBSR works.
    - fdggdfsvscvsd 8y ago
      Replicated, too?
  - jdietrich 8y ago
    >But "practicing mindfulness" is suggesting the cure is easy Not really, no. Acceptance and Commitment Therapy is a fairly popular psychotherapeutic approach that makes use of mindfulness. The objective of ACT is to move patients towards valued behaviour and a meaningful life. In order to achieve that, it uses mindfulness practice to facilitate acceptance of distressing internal experiences and re-orient the patient towards the present moment. It's very easy to say "just do stuff that matters to you", but there are all sorts of internal obstacles to that. Some people are very anxious and find it more comfortable to avoid new experiences, even if those experiences might ultimately be rewarding. Some people are lacking in confidence and assume that they'll fail at anything they try. Some people are so overwhelmed by emotional pain that they struggle to just get out of bed in the morning. Some people are stuck in self-destructive habits that temporarily soothe their distress but worsen the circumstances that contribute to their distress. Mindfulness doesn't fix a crappy life, but it's a useful tool. If you can observe your anxious thoughts as just thoughts passing through your mind, you might give them a bit less credence. If you can learn to sit with your distress and tolerate it, you might be a bit less likely to have that drink or distract yourself with a video game or cut your wrists. If you can learn to focus more on the present moment, you might worry a bit less about whether you'll succeed or fail and take a bit more pleasure in the experience of trying.
rsynnott 8y ago
There's a lot of evidence that mindfulness based stress reduction works, with somewhat weaker evidence for other applications of mindfulness. There's little evidence for self-help books or your 'just feel better' approach, though.
newsgremlin 8y ago
But those solutions are often the barrier that people are trying to overcome. Due to things like anxiety, depression, ADHD, autism etc. that may be mild forms which are undiagnosed which hinder your interactions with others and the way you perceive your very identity and inability to perceive how others see you. These are not always overt feelings that you feel per se, they can be subtle, in the background of your mind like a gnawing feeling that convinces you don't deserve those things you listed or the ideal scenario someone has in their head is unattainable. And ofcourse severe cases are much worse. Mindfulness, and Meditation by association, are the ways to identify the reoccurring thoughts and feelings, learning how to live with (not deal with or cure) them is key.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

samdoidge 8y ago

I agree problems need to be tackled at the source, but some self-help books may help you deal with the problem. 12 Rules for Life is one such book.

FrankyHollywood 8y ago
yes you're right, some books can really be insightful, I've read some myself :) Unfortunately I see people around me who drown in the therapy/self-help circuit. A lot of money is involved, and they keep running in circles. It seems to become a self fulfilling prophecy. If you spend to much time reflecting on your life, it becomes part of your life which prevents you from really living. Before saying anymore clichés I'll stop, and go do something :)
faceplanted 8y ago
12 Rules for life is a complete mess of strangely used bible quotes, misattributed and misquoted philosophers, at one point blatant rape apology, and an obvious lack of empathy from the author throughout. But one thing is does do well that I wish people would focus on over the obvious shortcomings of the author and why nothing has really replaced it yet is that it tells you in no uncertain terms that if you want to go anywhere or have any confidence in yourself you have to acknowledge that you live in a system that isn't always fair and try to make it work for you, paralysis will get you nowhere.
- samdoidge 8y ago
  > 12 Rules for life is a complete mess of strangely used bible quotes, misattributed and misquoted philosophers Can you be more specific with the misquoted and misattributed philosophers?
  - mayniac 8y ago
    Not specific to philosophers, but Contrapoints has a good breakdown of why the term "postmodern neo-marxists", which JBP uses a number of times throughout the book, shows a complete misunderstanding of modern philosophy. [1] Not related to 12 rules, but Cuck Philosophy goes into JBP's lectures where he references postmodernism and again appears to completely misunderstand the fundamentals. [2] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LqZdkkBDas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LqZdkkBDas (probably NSFW) [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU1LhcEh8Ms https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU1LhcEh8Ms

growlist 8y ago

But hang on - there ARE serious problems in our society, culture and economy that need solving, and wishing them away or cloaking yourself in a blanket of warm feelings isn't going to change them, is it?

nightcracker 8y ago
It is going to solve acute problem of you personally being negatively affected by stress.
- geggam 8y ago
  Yet evolution teaches us that humans are hardwired to learn from negative events. In fact positive events tend to create addictions... or religions.

grumdan 8y ago

I would see it the other way around: To me the real issue is that our minds have a tendency to create a lot of unnecessary stress for ourselves and make us focus on goals that are unlikely to produce any lasting happiness, like constantly striving for new achievements. Meditation, at least some forms of it, are attacking this particular problem at the source and try to help people let go of these mental habits. I get the converse feeling that hobbies / meeting up with friends / putting a lot of effort into work are engaging, but they also feel like pleasant distractions instead of addressing what I see as the real underlying issue. This is highly subjective and depends on on what ones wants to do with one's life, but meditation certainly isn't a surrogate solution to me.

DanBC 8y ago

Mental ill health is a leading cause of death worldwide. It leads to more years lost to disabiity than anything else. It's a significant cause of absence from work. If the cure was so fucking simple don't you think people would have tried it? The worst thing about HN is people who do not know what they're talking about chipping in with their facile half-witted suggestions for what they reckon.

fdggdfsvscvsd 8y ago
But "practicing mindfulness" is suggesting the cure is easy (pretty sure the science is shaky, at least positive thinking isn't proven to work?). Actually working on issues might work better, and might also not be easy.
- rsynnott 8y ago
  There's a good bit of evidence that MBSR works.
  - fdggdfsvscvsd 8y ago
    Replicated, too?
- jdietrich 8y ago
  >But "practicing mindfulness" is suggesting the cure is easy Not really, no. Acceptance and Commitment Therapy is a fairly popular psychotherapeutic approach that makes use of mindfulness. The objective of ACT is to move patients towards valued behaviour and a meaningful life. In order to achieve that, it uses mindfulness practice to facilitate acceptance of distressing internal experiences and re-orient the patient towards the present moment. It's very easy to say "just do stuff that matters to you", but there are all sorts of internal obstacles to that. Some people are very anxious and find it more comfortable to avoid new experiences, even if those experiences might ultimately be rewarding. Some people are lacking in confidence and assume that they'll fail at anything they try. Some people are so overwhelmed by emotional pain that they struggle to just get out of bed in the morning. Some people are stuck in self-destructive habits that temporarily soothe their distress but worsen the circumstances that contribute to their distress. Mindfulness doesn't fix a crappy life, but it's a useful tool. If you can observe your anxious thoughts as just thoughts passing through your mind, you might give them a bit less credence. If you can learn to sit with your distress and tolerate it, you might be a bit less likely to have that drink or distract yourself with a video game or cut your wrists. If you can learn to focus more on the present moment, you might worry a bit less about whether you'll succeed or fail and take a bit more pleasure in the experience of trying.

rsynnott 8y ago

There's a lot of evidence that mindfulness based stress reduction works, with somewhat weaker evidence for other applications of mindfulness. There's little evidence for self-help books or your 'just feel better' approach, though.

newsgremlin 8y ago

But those solutions are often the barrier that people are trying to overcome. Due to things like anxiety, depression, ADHD, autism etc. that may be mild forms which are undiagnosed which hinder your interactions with others and the way you perceive your very identity and inability to perceive how others see you. These are not always overt feelings that you feel per se, they can be subtle, in the background of your mind like a gnawing feeling that convinces you don't deserve those things you listed or the ideal scenario someone has in their head is unattainable. And ofcourse severe cases are much worse. Mindfulness, and Meditation by association, are the ways to identify the reoccurring thoughts and feelings, learning how to live with (not deal with or cure) them is key.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]