5 ms·

Echoing you concern and somehow related: in Germany it is almost impossible to get state of the art software infrastructure on the road for customers of public

Echoing you concern and somehow related: in Germany it is almost impossible to get state of the art software infrastructure on the road for customers of public transit because of the fragmentation of transportation providers. Municipalities run their own systems and while not all of them are actively sabotaging attempts at increased coherence, none of them has any incentive to increase coherence either. If it weren't for the state-run federal railway system, that runs also commuter railways in all German cities (and thus can enforce pressure) I reckon there would even be no software to calculate a ride from one end of the country to the other. And there would certainly be no product like the BahnCard, were you can use all of Germany's public transit for ~4.200 € / year.

adrianN 8y ago
Japan has bunch of different rail providers that run parts of the network. I wonder how the interoperability problems are solved over there.
- woodpanel 8y ago
  That's true and as interesting it is, that it seems to be working is, that most, if not all providers are private companies. I don't have an answer to that...
- klodolph 8y ago
  Well, sure. But long distances are usually covered by Shinkansen, and shorter distances are often covered by one of the regional JRs. All of these are supported by JRS (https://www.jrs.co.jp/english/ https://www.jrs.co.jp/english/) which run IT and the railway information services. You only need to buy one ticket for a JR trip even though several companies may be operating the trains you use. For more local service, there are also private railways and various metro systems. They sometimes have agreements to allow transfers between them, like the two Tokyo subways. So if you are going to use two different subway systems in Tokyo, you buy a transfer ticket and have to pass through a gate in the middle of your trip to transfer to the other system.
  - CaptainZapp 8y ago
    They sometimes have agreements to allow transfers between them, like the two Tokyo subways. That's a pretty gross understatement. There are more than a dozen companies operating public transport systems in Tokyo alone and it's all interconnected. They don't only seemlessly interconnect (via PASMO or SWICA smart cards), but they also share common designators for their station labellings. So if you are going to use two different subway systems in Tokyo, you buy a transfer ticket and have to pass through a gate in the middle of your trip to transfer to the other system. I remeber exactly that. But that was around the year 2000, where it was really difficult to use public transport without a guide as a foreigner. Today, with a smart card, consistent and unique labelling of every station, regardless who operates it, and all ticket machines talking perfect English it's a breeze.
    - delfinom 8y ago
      >There are more than a dozen companies operating public transport systems in Tokyo alone and it's all interconnected. They don't only seemlessly interconnect (via PASMO or SWICA smart cards), but they also share common designators for their station labellings. Perhaps they are more culturally motivated to present customers with the best experience unlike trying to fleece customers for every dime in America. Just saying. There's a chance if you don't integrate your transit with the other guy, they may pay more to use yours and spend 2 hours traveling. Win!
TulliusCicero 8y ago
Yeah this is a really frustrating. A lot of the transit agencies don't have their schedules on third-party apps, and even the ones that do don't seem to usually release real-time data. For example I'm in Munich, Google Maps shows schedules but not real-time departures, and the data definitely exists somewhere since their own apps show it. Of course, since this is a random one-off transit agency app, the UX is absolutely atrocious compared to Google Maps.
Xylakant 8y ago
> were you can use all of Germany's public transit for ~4.200 € / year. Well, you can't. You can use Railway and S-Bahn because S-Bahn is traditionally owned by the DB. You can also use other public transport in the specific regions that the DB negotiated for, the ones that are included as "city" on a long distance railway ticket. These regions do not even always align with the regions for public transport, for example "City" in Berlin is not aligned with the A,B or C regions for local tickets, it's mostly A plus some. The full list is here https://www.bahn.de/p/view/angebot/cityticket.shtml https://www.bahn.de/p/view/angebot/cityticket.shtml
- woodpanel 8y ago
  Yes there are some exceptions, but you're just proving my point: Even the Bahn can't negotiate full alignment across Germany although its only the largest of cities that don't accept the BC100 completely. Then again, almost all of those cities have an extensive S-Bahn system, so we're really just talking about some subways across Germany where you still have to pay extra. Case in point is Berlin: What edge case does it have to be for a typical BC100 owner to travel across Germany and have to visit Zone B or C with a subway but not with a S-Bahn? https://www.bahn.de/wmedia/view/mdb/media/intern/cityticket_c9.pdf https://www.bahn.de/wmedia/view/mdb/media/intern/cityticket_...
  - Xylakant 8y ago
    It’s not an edge case. Zone B begins at the inner S-Bahn-Ring. There’s a lot of destinations that are reachable via U-Bahn and Bus/Tram outside the inner ring. It’s so common to travel outside zone A that you can’t even buy a zone A ticket, it’s always A+B Keep in mind that “city” is only available for 120 cities in germany in the first place.

adrianN 8y ago

Japan has bunch of different rail providers that run parts of the network. I wonder how the interoperability problems are solved over there.

woodpanel 8y ago
That's true and as interesting it is, that it seems to be working is, that most, if not all providers are private companies. I don't have an answer to that...
klodolph 8y ago
Well, sure. But long distances are usually covered by Shinkansen, and shorter distances are often covered by one of the regional JRs. All of these are supported by JRS (https://www.jrs.co.jp/english/ https://www.jrs.co.jp/english/) which run IT and the railway information services. You only need to buy one ticket for a JR trip even though several companies may be operating the trains you use. For more local service, there are also private railways and various metro systems. They sometimes have agreements to allow transfers between them, like the two Tokyo subways. So if you are going to use two different subway systems in Tokyo, you buy a transfer ticket and have to pass through a gate in the middle of your trip to transfer to the other system.
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  They sometimes have agreements to allow transfers between them, like the two Tokyo subways. That's a pretty gross understatement. There are more than a dozen companies operating public transport systems in Tokyo alone and it's all interconnected. They don't only seemlessly interconnect (via PASMO or SWICA smart cards), but they also share common designators for their station labellings. So if you are going to use two different subway systems in Tokyo, you buy a transfer ticket and have to pass through a gate in the middle of your trip to transfer to the other system. I remeber exactly that. But that was around the year 2000, where it was really difficult to use public transport without a guide as a foreigner. Today, with a smart card, consistent and unique labelling of every station, regardless who operates it, and all ticket machines talking perfect English it's a breeze.
  - delfinom 8y ago
    >There are more than a dozen companies operating public transport systems in Tokyo alone and it's all interconnected. They don't only seemlessly interconnect (via PASMO or SWICA smart cards), but they also share common designators for their station labellings. Perhaps they are more culturally motivated to present customers with the best experience unlike trying to fleece customers for every dime in America. Just saying. There's a chance if you don't integrate your transit with the other guy, they may pay more to use yours and spend 2 hours traveling. Win!

TulliusCicero 8y ago

Yeah this is a really frustrating. A lot of the transit agencies don't have their schedules on third-party apps, and even the ones that do don't seem to usually release real-time data. For example I'm in Munich, Google Maps shows schedules but not real-time departures, and the data definitely exists somewhere since their own apps show it. Of course, since this is a random one-off transit agency app, the UX is absolutely atrocious compared to Google Maps.

Xylakant 8y ago

> were you can use all of Germany's public transit for ~4.200 € / year. Well, you can't. You can use Railway and S-Bahn because S-Bahn is traditionally owned by the DB. You can also use other public transport in the specific regions that the DB negotiated for, the ones that are included as "city" on a long distance railway ticket. These regions do not even always align with the regions for public transport, for example "City" in Berlin is not aligned with the A,B or C regions for local tickets, it's mostly A plus some. The full list is here https://www.bahn.de/p/view/angebot/cityticket.shtml https://www.bahn.de/p/view/angebot/cityticket.shtml

woodpanel 8y ago
Yes there are some exceptions, but you're just proving my point: Even the Bahn can't negotiate full alignment across Germany although its only the largest of cities that don't accept the BC100 completely. Then again, almost all of those cities have an extensive S-Bahn system, so we're really just talking about some subways across Germany where you still have to pay extra. Case in point is Berlin: What edge case does it have to be for a typical BC100 owner to travel across Germany and have to visit Zone B or C with a subway but not with a S-Bahn? https://www.bahn.de/wmedia/view/mdb/media/intern/cityticket_c9.pdf https://www.bahn.de/wmedia/view/mdb/media/intern/cityticket_...
- Xylakant 8y ago
  It’s not an edge case. Zone B begins at the inner S-Bahn-Ring. There’s a lot of destinations that are reachable via U-Bahn and Bus/Tram outside the inner ring. It’s so common to travel outside zone A that you can’t even buy a zone A ticket, it’s always A+B Keep in mind that “city” is only available for 120 cities in germany in the first place.