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So basically every possible configuration in which people can be made to work together is intolerably unbearable along some dimension or another. What have we

So basically every possible configuration in which people can be made to work together is intolerably unbearable along some dimension or another. What have we learned? There isn't a configuration that is good, productive and cost effective. Pick any two.

pmiller2 8y ago
I doubt the cost of an office, whether private or a 6-8 person bull pen style, is more than a rounding error compared to the cost of salaries + benefits for most tech employees. Another commenter put forth a figure of $300/month/person. That’s less than the cost of those shiny new MacBooks seemingly everyone in SF carries around.
- yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
  > Another commenter put forth a figure of $300/month/person. That’s less than the cost of those shiny new MacBooks seemingly everyone in SF carries around. …But nobody is buying a new MacBook every quarter.
  - CamperBob2 8y ago
    If valued employees needed a new MacBook every quarter, the company would find a way to make it happen. For some reason I've never understood, that doesn't apply to office space.
    - mulmen 8y ago
      Valued employees also get offices if they want. It's the plebians that get stuck in open offices with four year old HP laptops with busted fans.
- RA_Fisher 8y ago
  It's not just the office space. The commute is very costly as well. Employees add the commute and all the other annoyances to their salary requirements. It's good for the employer and employee to "keep the money on the field" aka maximizing the time happily making value for the customer.
EliRivers 8y ago
"There isn't a configuration that is good, productive and cost effective." I think you meant cheap. It's quite possible to have expensive, cost-effective configurations.
- james_s_tayler 8y ago
  but is it possible to have expensive, cost-effective configurations that (by default since they are cost effective must be productive) AND are deemed to be good working conditions by all parties? This is my claim. However you arrange it there exists some suckiness which people inevitably complain about that is a trade-off of having it in that specific configuration.
  - dmitriid 8y ago
    Rooms for 6-8 people isolated from external noises is a good sweet spot. Yes, people will complain. But there's a huge difference between "John, could you please turn the volume of your headphones down" and "study after study has proven that open-floor plans are detrimental to productivity and health".
    - zimpenfish 8y ago
      > Rooms for 6-8 people isolated from external noises is a good sweet spot. You just have to pray you don't get stuck with people quite capable of generating a lot of extremely irritating internal (to the office) noise.
    - stef25 8y ago
      > Rooms for 6-8 people isolated from external noises is a good sweet spot Sweet spot for me does not depend on the number of people. I used to work for a company in a huge open space with 25+ devs who understood the need for silence. Now I'm in an open space with 8 people who do not understand the need for silence. One guy's been on a diet for the past year and eats only raw carrots for lunch. The crunching is so loud I can hear it through my Bose QC15 headphones. It starts with the screeching carrot peeler, I want to hang myself. The same guy spends all day making obnoxious snorting sounds and doesn't know what a Kleenex is. Then another colleague decides to go on the same raw carrot diet. Is this a candid camera episode? Then there's the daily chatter about last night's football game, incessant complaining about whatever the latest company announcement was, other people coming in to the room to yak about their code. Other people fart and stink out the whole room. I understand the need people to be able to have a chat behind their desk, for professional or personal reasons. But that also bothers others. Conclusion is, open plan doesn't work. I'm now on the verge of quitting my job for this reason and it's the same reason I quit my previous job. When I start interviewing for other jobs, how can I ask "do people here understand the need to shut up" without appearing like an asshole? If I didn't have kids I'd move to outer Mongolia and farm sheep.

pmiller2 8y ago

I doubt the cost of an office, whether private or a 6-8 person bull pen style, is more than a rounding error compared to the cost of salaries + benefits for most tech employees. Another commenter put forth a figure of $300/month/person. That’s less than the cost of those shiny new MacBooks seemingly everyone in SF carries around.

yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
> Another commenter put forth a figure of $300/month/person. That’s less than the cost of those shiny new MacBooks seemingly everyone in SF carries around. …But nobody is buying a new MacBook every quarter.
- CamperBob2 8y ago
  If valued employees needed a new MacBook every quarter, the company would find a way to make it happen. For some reason I've never understood, that doesn't apply to office space.
  - mulmen 8y ago
    Valued employees also get offices if they want. It's the plebians that get stuck in open offices with four year old HP laptops with busted fans.
RA_Fisher 8y ago
It's not just the office space. The commute is very costly as well. Employees add the commute and all the other annoyances to their salary requirements. It's good for the employer and employee to "keep the money on the field" aka maximizing the time happily making value for the customer.

EliRivers 8y ago

"There isn't a configuration that is good, productive and cost effective." I think you meant cheap. It's quite possible to have expensive, cost-effective configurations.

james_s_tayler 8y ago
but is it possible to have expensive, cost-effective configurations that (by default since they are cost effective must be productive) AND are deemed to be good working conditions by all parties? This is my claim. However you arrange it there exists some suckiness which people inevitably complain about that is a trade-off of having it in that specific configuration.
- dmitriid 8y ago
  Rooms for 6-8 people isolated from external noises is a good sweet spot. Yes, people will complain. But there's a huge difference between "John, could you please turn the volume of your headphones down" and "study after study has proven that open-floor plans are detrimental to productivity and health".
  - zimpenfish 8y ago
    > Rooms for 6-8 people isolated from external noises is a good sweet spot. You just have to pray you don't get stuck with people quite capable of generating a lot of extremely irritating internal (to the office) noise.
  - stef25 8y ago
    > Rooms for 6-8 people isolated from external noises is a good sweet spot Sweet spot for me does not depend on the number of people. I used to work for a company in a huge open space with 25+ devs who understood the need for silence. Now I'm in an open space with 8 people who do not understand the need for silence. One guy's been on a diet for the past year and eats only raw carrots for lunch. The crunching is so loud I can hear it through my Bose QC15 headphones. It starts with the screeching carrot peeler, I want to hang myself. The same guy spends all day making obnoxious snorting sounds and doesn't know what a Kleenex is. Then another colleague decides to go on the same raw carrot diet. Is this a candid camera episode? Then there's the daily chatter about last night's football game, incessant complaining about whatever the latest company announcement was, other people coming in to the room to yak about their code. Other people fart and stink out the whole room. I understand the need people to be able to have a chat behind their desk, for professional or personal reasons. But that also bothers others. Conclusion is, open plan doesn't work. I'm now on the verge of quitting my job for this reason and it's the same reason I quit my previous job. When I start interviewing for other jobs, how can I ask "do people here understand the need to shut up" without appearing like an asshole? If I didn't have kids I'd move to outer Mongolia and farm sheep.