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Taiwan used to have an official Romanization system called MPSII. I wish they pushed it harder because it's a lot easier for non-Mandarin-speakers to get right.

by geowwy 8y ago

Taiwan used to have an official Romanization system called MPSII. I wish they pushed it harder because it's a lot easier for non-Mandarin-speakers to get right. • "Gong Xi Fa Cai" becomes "Gung Shi Fa Tsai" • "Xiaomi" becomes "Shiau-mi" • "Jiu" (pronounced like "Joe") becomes "Jiou" • "Qu" (pronounced like "chew") becomes "Chu"

thaumasiotes 8y ago
> "Jiu" (pronounced like "Joe") Pronounced like "Jyoe", maybe. "Joe" would be the syllable "zhou".
themodelplumber 8y ago
What...! This would have saved me so much pain trying to learn basic phrases a while ago. Looks like there is a converter, which is cool for next time: https://www.gonnalearn.com/chinese/converter.html https://www.gonnalearn.com/chinese/converter.html Edit: Hmm, it didn't work when I tried it. Not sure if I chose the right source type.
hyeonwho4 8y ago
That sounds brilliant for signage, but Pinyin is shorter and this better for digital input methods.
- PhasmaFelis 8y ago
  I'd like to think that there are better #1 priorities for a writing system than "as short as possible".
  - runn1ng 8y ago
    "Be as close to English pronunciation as possible"?
    - jpatokal 8y ago
      That works if your target audience is English speakers. However, the main consumer of pinyin is Chinese in China, where it's ubiquitous for glossing the readings of Chinese characters, either because some people can't read them, because some characters are obscure, or just for stylistic reasons. Some thoughts on the topic: https://driftingclouds.net/2018/07/17/from-siberia-to-tibet-china-as-a-tourist/ https://driftingclouds.net/2018/07/17/from-siberia-to-tibet-...
- geowwy 8y ago
  Most Taiwanese use bopomofo* for digital input, so it's not an issue :) * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Keyboard_layout_Zhuyin.svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Keyboard_layout_Zhuy...
  - microcolonel 8y ago
    As an aside, I know primary input methods are not built for foreigners, but it's getting hard to keep all of the input methods in my head. With Japanese at least it's really easy to just do dvorak -> romaji -> [conversion]; but when I have to type russian, I have to switch gears completely, since there is no relation between english and russian keymaps (even in terms of theory of operation, with alternating hands for isolated vowels and consonants). I guess I had to type more Chinese, I guess I could justify it better.
- Taniwha 8y ago
  My (mainland) experience is that on cell phones younger people tend to use pinyin base keyboard input while older people tend to use character recognition software
- jhanschoo 8y ago
  For digital methods, a romanization-agnostic system called shuangpin is pretty optimal.
- powerapple 8y ago
  pinyin is not romanization, it is a pronunciation system used to mark how character should be pronounced correctly. The objective is to have the 'correct' pronunciation, not to make it easier for westerner's to mimic the sound (which is actually the objective of romanization). I don't think we should compare these two systems.
PhasmaFelis 8y ago
I always wondered why Romanization was done the way it was. Someone had the unprecedented opportunity to build a system from whole cloth where everything was pronounced just like it sounded, and completely fucked it up.
- pavlov 8y ago
  Only if you expect it to look like English spelling specifically? If the benchmark instead is other European languages, pinyin seems reasonable. The mapping of Q is probably the most unexpected feature.
- geowwy 8y ago
  The goal of Pinyin was to be a pronunciation guide for Chinese people who have no preconceived ideas about what letters make what sounds. It works great for that. The problem is when foreigners try to pronounce Pinyin using their existing knowledge of the Latin alphabet. Inevitably they end up pronouncing "Xiaomi" as "Jow-me", etc!
  - Zarel 8y ago
    I think this isn't giving Pinyin enough credit. The biggest problem with English pronunciation, and the biggest reason everyone says English spelling is a mess, is the Great Vowel Shift: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift So when you're writing a sound in the Latin alphabet, you have two choices: - spell it like English (the only language with spelling so confusing, spelling bees are a thing) - or spell it like every other language (relatively consistent) Pinyin... chose to be consistent, like every other language. A lot of the other weirdness is based on other languages, too: for instance, "x" is pronounced "sh" is Portuguese as well.
    - geowwy 8y ago
      I'm not saying saying use English vowels or anything like that, I just mean they could have used the letters in more standard ways like MPSII does.
turtlebits 8y ago
Relying on better pronunciation of non-Chinese speakers as a form of romanization for Chinese speakers is not a good idea. Does anyone remember when Beijing was Peking? And I don't think Taiwan had an official romanization system, Wade giles seems more prevalent, and the road signs now are still a laughable mess.
- nerdponx 8y ago
  Maybe not a good idea in general, but it seems perfectly reasonable for naming your restaurant.
- geowwy 8y ago
  >And I don't think Taiwan had an official romanization system They had a few but never used any of them consistently, hence the mess.
- jhanschoo 8y ago
  Actually, Bei = Pe, in another form of romanization. "B" in Hanyu Pinyin is an unaspirated "p". In addition, "j" was indeed a "k"-like sound in the past. Mandarin Chinese underwent a linguistic process called palatalization, which softens "k"-like sounds; the same process has Italian pronounce "k" sounds as "tch", and, to a further extreme, has English and French pronounce them as "s".
  - zhte415 8y ago
    Peking, the spelling, 'Pe', well 'Pek' with a glottal stop on the 'k' comes from Cantonese from over a century ago.
- ksec 8y ago
  >Does anyone remember when Beijing was Peking? The name Peking came from Cantonese.
ksec 8y ago
This is similar to HK, Cantonese had a similar Romanization system as well, makes things trillion times easier for English Speaker to pronounce it. No idea where did the Chinese Pinyin came from.
rqs 8y ago
That take forever to summarize. How about learn PinYin from the basic? I just found this video on YouTube, can be a good start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XbQJPF817I&list=PLWXyZU_NJb_fGUFuJpqjn4vYLzpTZqhC0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XbQJPF817I&list=PLWXyZU_NJb...

by geowwy 8y ago

thaumasiotes 8y ago

> "Jiu" (pronounced like "Joe") Pronounced like "Jyoe", maybe. "Joe" would be the syllable "zhou".

themodelplumber 8y ago

What...! This would have saved me so much pain trying to learn basic phrases a while ago. Looks like there is a converter, which is cool for next time: https://www.gonnalearn.com/chinese/converter.html https://www.gonnalearn.com/chinese/converter.html Edit: Hmm, it didn't work when I tried it. Not sure if I chose the right source type.

hyeonwho4 8y ago

That sounds brilliant for signage, but Pinyin is shorter and this better for digital input methods.

PhasmaFelis 8y ago
I'd like to think that there are better #1 priorities for a writing system than "as short as possible".
- runn1ng 8y ago
  "Be as close to English pronunciation as possible"?
  - jpatokal 8y ago
    That works if your target audience is English speakers. However, the main consumer of pinyin is Chinese in China, where it's ubiquitous for glossing the readings of Chinese characters, either because some people can't read them, because some characters are obscure, or just for stylistic reasons. Some thoughts on the topic: https://driftingclouds.net/2018/07/17/from-siberia-to-tibet-china-as-a-tourist/ https://driftingclouds.net/2018/07/17/from-siberia-to-tibet-...
geowwy 8y ago
Most Taiwanese use bopomofo* for digital input, so it's not an issue :) * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Keyboard_layout_Zhuyin.svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Keyboard_layout_Zhuy...
- microcolonel 8y ago
  As an aside, I know primary input methods are not built for foreigners, but it's getting hard to keep all of the input methods in my head. With Japanese at least it's really easy to just do dvorak -> romaji -> [conversion]; but when I have to type russian, I have to switch gears completely, since there is no relation between english and russian keymaps (even in terms of theory of operation, with alternating hands for isolated vowels and consonants). I guess I had to type more Chinese, I guess I could justify it better.
Taniwha 8y ago
My (mainland) experience is that on cell phones younger people tend to use pinyin base keyboard input while older people tend to use character recognition software
jhanschoo 8y ago
For digital methods, a romanization-agnostic system called shuangpin is pretty optimal.
powerapple 8y ago
pinyin is not romanization, it is a pronunciation system used to mark how character should be pronounced correctly. The objective is to have the 'correct' pronunciation, not to make it easier for westerner's to mimic the sound (which is actually the objective of romanization). I don't think we should compare these two systems.

PhasmaFelis 8y ago

I always wondered why Romanization was done the way it was. Someone had the unprecedented opportunity to build a system from whole cloth where everything was pronounced just like it sounded, and completely fucked it up.

pavlov 8y ago
Only if you expect it to look like English spelling specifically? If the benchmark instead is other European languages, pinyin seems reasonable. The mapping of Q is probably the most unexpected feature.
geowwy 8y ago
The goal of Pinyin was to be a pronunciation guide for Chinese people who have no preconceived ideas about what letters make what sounds. It works great for that. The problem is when foreigners try to pronounce Pinyin using their existing knowledge of the Latin alphabet. Inevitably they end up pronouncing "Xiaomi" as "Jow-me", etc!
- Zarel 8y ago
  I think this isn't giving Pinyin enough credit. The biggest problem with English pronunciation, and the biggest reason everyone says English spelling is a mess, is the Great Vowel Shift: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift So when you're writing a sound in the Latin alphabet, you have two choices: - spell it like English (the only language with spelling so confusing, spelling bees are a thing) - or spell it like every other language (relatively consistent) Pinyin... chose to be consistent, like every other language. A lot of the other weirdness is based on other languages, too: for instance, "x" is pronounced "sh" is Portuguese as well.
  - geowwy 8y ago
    I'm not saying saying use English vowels or anything like that, I just mean they could have used the letters in more standard ways like MPSII does.

turtlebits 8y ago

Relying on better pronunciation of non-Chinese speakers as a form of romanization for Chinese speakers is not a good idea. Does anyone remember when Beijing was Peking? And I don't think Taiwan had an official romanization system, Wade giles seems more prevalent, and the road signs now are still a laughable mess.

nerdponx 8y ago
Maybe not a good idea in general, but it seems perfectly reasonable for naming your restaurant.
geowwy 8y ago
>And I don't think Taiwan had an official romanization system They had a few but never used any of them consistently, hence the mess.
jhanschoo 8y ago
Actually, Bei = Pe, in another form of romanization. "B" in Hanyu Pinyin is an unaspirated "p". In addition, "j" was indeed a "k"-like sound in the past. Mandarin Chinese underwent a linguistic process called palatalization, which softens "k"-like sounds; the same process has Italian pronounce "k" sounds as "tch", and, to a further extreme, has English and French pronounce them as "s".
- zhte415 8y ago
  Peking, the spelling, 'Pe', well 'Pek' with a glottal stop on the 'k' comes from Cantonese from over a century ago.
ksec 8y ago
>Does anyone remember when Beijing was Peking? The name Peking came from Cantonese.

ksec 8y ago

This is similar to HK, Cantonese had a similar Romanization system as well, makes things trillion times easier for English Speaker to pronounce it. No idea where did the Chinese Pinyin came from.

rqs 8y ago

That take forever to summarize. How about learn PinYin from the basic? I just found this video on YouTube, can be a good start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XbQJPF817I&list=PLWXyZU_NJb_fGUFuJpqjn4vYLzpTZqhC0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XbQJPF817I&list=PLWXyZU_NJb...