11 ms·

I can see the thinking behind the move -- embracing their identity -- but the thing with pinyin is that's not always intuitive for English speakers who've not l

I can see the thinking behind the move -- embracing their identity -- but the thing with pinyin is that's not always intuitive for English speakers who've not learned it explicitly. For instance, take the common New Year greeting 恭喜發財, romanized in pinyin as "Gong Xi Fa Cai". "Xi" in pinyin is pronounced somewhat like "she" in English, but someone who doesn't know will intuitively try to say "eks-ee" or "eks-eye" which is incomprehensible to a native Chinese. Likewise, "Cai" is like "tz" + "eye", but someone might try to say "Kai" as in the pronunciation of "Cairo".

geowwy 8y ago
Taiwan used to have an official Romanization system called MPSII. I wish they pushed it harder because it's a lot easier for non-Mandarin-speakers to get right. • "Gong Xi Fa Cai" becomes "Gung Shi Fa Tsai" • "Xiaomi" becomes "Shiau-mi" • "Jiu" (pronounced like "Joe") becomes "Jiou" • "Qu" (pronounced like "chew") becomes "Chu"
- thaumasiotes 8y ago
  > "Jiu" (pronounced like "Joe") Pronounced like "Jyoe", maybe. "Joe" would be the syllable "zhou".
- themodelplumber 8y ago
  What...! This would have saved me so much pain trying to learn basic phrases a while ago. Looks like there is a converter, which is cool for next time: https://www.gonnalearn.com/chinese/converter.html https://www.gonnalearn.com/chinese/converter.html Edit: Hmm, it didn't work when I tried it. Not sure if I chose the right source type.
- hyeonwho4 8y ago
  That sounds brilliant for signage, but Pinyin is shorter and this better for digital input methods.
  - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
    I'd like to think that there are better #1 priorities for a writing system than "as short as possible".
    - runn1ng 8y ago
      "Be as close to English pronunciation as possible"?
      - jpatokal 8y ago
        That works if your target audience is English speakers. However, the main consumer of pinyin is Chinese in China, where it's ubiquitous for glossing the readings of Chinese characters, either because some people can't read them, because some characters are obscure, or just for stylistic reasons. Some thoughts on the topic: https://driftingclouds.net/2018/07/17/from-siberia-to-tibet-china-as-a-tourist/ https://driftingclouds.net/2018/07/17/from-siberia-to-tibet-...
  - geowwy 8y ago
    Most Taiwanese use bopomofo* for digital input, so it's not an issue :) * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Keyboard_layout_Zhuyin.svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Keyboard_layout_Zhuy...
    - microcolonel 8y ago
      As an aside, I know primary input methods are not built for foreigners, but it's getting hard to keep all of the input methods in my head. With Japanese at least it's really easy to just do dvorak -> romaji -> [conversion]; but when I have to type russian, I have to switch gears completely, since there is no relation between english and russian keymaps (even in terms of theory of operation, with alternating hands for isolated vowels and consonants). I guess I had to type more Chinese, I guess I could justify it better.
  - Taniwha 8y ago
    My (mainland) experience is that on cell phones younger people tend to use pinyin base keyboard input while older people tend to use character recognition software
- PhasmaFelis 8y ago
  I always wondered why Romanization was done the way it was. Someone had the unprecedented opportunity to build a system from whole cloth where everything was pronounced just like it sounded, and completely fucked it up.
  - pavlov 8y ago
    Only if you expect it to look like English spelling specifically? If the benchmark instead is other European languages, pinyin seems reasonable. The mapping of Q is probably the most unexpected feature.
  - geowwy 8y ago
    The goal of Pinyin was to be a pronunciation guide for Chinese people who have no preconceived ideas about what letters make what sounds. It works great for that. The problem is when foreigners try to pronounce Pinyin using their existing knowledge of the Latin alphabet. Inevitably they end up pronouncing "Xiaomi" as "Jow-me", etc!
    - Zarel 8y ago
      I think this isn't giving Pinyin enough credit. The biggest problem with English pronunciation, and the biggest reason everyone says English spelling is a mess, is the Great Vowel Shift: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift So when you're writing a sound in the Latin alphabet, you have two choices: - spell it like English (the only language with spelling so confusing, spelling bees are a thing) - or spell it like every other language (relatively consistent) Pinyin... chose to be consistent, like every other language. A lot of the other weirdness is based on other languages, too: for instance, "x" is pronounced "sh" is Portuguese as well.
      - geowwy 8y ago
        I'm not saying saying use English vowels or anything like that, I just mean they could have used the letters in more standard ways like MPSII does.
- turtlebits 8y ago
  Relying on better pronunciation of non-Chinese speakers as a form of romanization for Chinese speakers is not a good idea. Does anyone remember when Beijing was Peking? And I don't think Taiwan had an official romanization system, Wade giles seems more prevalent, and the road signs now are still a laughable mess.
  - nerdponx 8y ago
    Maybe not a good idea in general, but it seems perfectly reasonable for naming your restaurant.
  - geowwy 8y ago
    >And I don't think Taiwan had an official romanization system They had a few but never used any of them consistently, hence the mess.
  - jhanschoo 8y ago
    Actually, Bei = Pe, in another form of romanization. "B" in Hanyu Pinyin is an unaspirated "p". In addition, "j" was indeed a "k"-like sound in the past. Mandarin Chinese underwent a linguistic process called palatalization, which softens "k"-like sounds; the same process has Italian pronounce "k" sounds as "tch", and, to a further extreme, has English and French pronounce them as "s".
    - zhte415 8y ago
      Peking, the spelling, 'Pe', well 'Pek' with a glottal stop on the 'k' comes from Cantonese from over a century ago.
  - ksec 8y ago
    >Does anyone remember when Beijing was Peking? The name Peking came from Cantonese.
- ksec 8y ago
  This is similar to HK, Cantonese had a similar Romanization system as well, makes things trillion times easier for English Speaker to pronounce it. No idea where did the Chinese Pinyin came from.
- rqs 8y ago
  That take forever to summarize. How about learn PinYin from the basic? I just found this video on YouTube, can be a good start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XbQJPF817I&list=PLWXyZU_NJb_fGUFuJpqjn4vYLzpTZqhC0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XbQJPF817I&list=PLWXyZU_NJb...
mc32 8y ago
I think it’s more than embracing identity but also moving away from the bland greasy spoon cheap fare type and moving to more sophisticated and upscale variety. The compromise is to have Chinese characters reflecting one name and an unrelated and disconnected English name to appeal to both audiences. Something like: 異國風味蔬食 Vegan Chinese.
williw 8y ago
In proper Mandarin pronunciation, "Xi" sounds more like the second syllable of "missy" not "she".
- Zarel 8y ago
  I don't know if you pronounce "missy" differently than I do, but I pronounced the second syllable "see". And to me, Mandarin 'xi' sounds a lot more like "she" than "see".
  - williw 8y ago
    You might not differentiate too well with "shi" and "si" pinyin in mandarin if you are not a native speaker. Or maybe you pronounce "she" differently. There shouldn't be a "sh" sound in "xi".
    - Zarel 8y ago
      I'm a native speaker; my first language was Mandarin. On the other hand, I'm a Southerner, so I don't usually distinguish between "sh" and "s" sounds. I can do the 卷舌 thing, though, well enough that Northerners tell me I'm doing it right, and I don't think either Pinyin "shi" or Pinyin "si" sound anything like English "she". And while I don't think Pinyin "xi" sounds exactly like English "she", I think it sounds pretty close.
- csa 8y ago
  ... in the vernacular. Proper pronunciation is more like “she”. This is an issue lost on most native speakers of mandarin, and it’s hard as hell to teach to learners. pinyin —> proper sound —-> actual sound xi —> she —> see si —> suh —> suh shi —> shuh —> suh chi —> chuh —> tsuh ci —> tsuh —> tsuh There are more, but I’m too many beers in now to remember. The best test is to ask someone how to say 四十四是四十四 (44 is 44). It’s a good test for tones. This is properly something like /shuh suh shuh shuh shuh suh shuh/. In vernacular, this usually becomes something like /suh suh suh suh suh suh suh/ with tones being the only hint at different words. Chinese is fun.
yegle 8y ago
恭喜发财 (Gong Xi Fa Cai) was never a common greeting phrase in Mandarin speaking regions. It was more commonly used in Cantonese (thus it was more commonly written as Gong Hey Fat Choi). In Mandarin speaking regions of China it's common to say 恭贺新禧 or 新春愉快 or simply 新年好.

geowwy 8y ago

Taiwan used to have an official Romanization system called MPSII. I wish they pushed it harder because it's a lot easier for non-Mandarin-speakers to get right. • "Gong Xi Fa Cai" becomes "Gung Shi Fa Tsai" • "Xiaomi" becomes "Shiau-mi" • "Jiu" (pronounced like "Joe") becomes "Jiou" • "Qu" (pronounced like "chew") becomes "Chu"

thaumasiotes 8y ago
> "Jiu" (pronounced like "Joe") Pronounced like "Jyoe", maybe. "Joe" would be the syllable "zhou".
themodelplumber 8y ago
What...! This would have saved me so much pain trying to learn basic phrases a while ago. Looks like there is a converter, which is cool for next time: https://www.gonnalearn.com/chinese/converter.html https://www.gonnalearn.com/chinese/converter.html Edit: Hmm, it didn't work when I tried it. Not sure if I chose the right source type.
hyeonwho4 8y ago
That sounds brilliant for signage, but Pinyin is shorter and this better for digital input methods.
- PhasmaFelis 8y ago
  I'd like to think that there are better #1 priorities for a writing system than "as short as possible".
  - runn1ng 8y ago
    "Be as close to English pronunciation as possible"?
    - jpatokal 8y ago
      That works if your target audience is English speakers. However, the main consumer of pinyin is Chinese in China, where it's ubiquitous for glossing the readings of Chinese characters, either because some people can't read them, because some characters are obscure, or just for stylistic reasons. Some thoughts on the topic: https://driftingclouds.net/2018/07/17/from-siberia-to-tibet-china-as-a-tourist/ https://driftingclouds.net/2018/07/17/from-siberia-to-tibet-...
- geowwy 8y ago
  Most Taiwanese use bopomofo* for digital input, so it's not an issue :) * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Keyboard_layout_Zhuyin.svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Keyboard_layout_Zhuy...
  - microcolonel 8y ago
    As an aside, I know primary input methods are not built for foreigners, but it's getting hard to keep all of the input methods in my head. With Japanese at least it's really easy to just do dvorak -> romaji -> [conversion]; but when I have to type russian, I have to switch gears completely, since there is no relation between english and russian keymaps (even in terms of theory of operation, with alternating hands for isolated vowels and consonants). I guess I had to type more Chinese, I guess I could justify it better.
- Taniwha 8y ago
  My (mainland) experience is that on cell phones younger people tend to use pinyin base keyboard input while older people tend to use character recognition software
PhasmaFelis 8y ago
I always wondered why Romanization was done the way it was. Someone had the unprecedented opportunity to build a system from whole cloth where everything was pronounced just like it sounded, and completely fucked it up.
- pavlov 8y ago
  Only if you expect it to look like English spelling specifically? If the benchmark instead is other European languages, pinyin seems reasonable. The mapping of Q is probably the most unexpected feature.
- geowwy 8y ago
  The goal of Pinyin was to be a pronunciation guide for Chinese people who have no preconceived ideas about what letters make what sounds. It works great for that. The problem is when foreigners try to pronounce Pinyin using their existing knowledge of the Latin alphabet. Inevitably they end up pronouncing "Xiaomi" as "Jow-me", etc!
  - Zarel 8y ago
    I think this isn't giving Pinyin enough credit. The biggest problem with English pronunciation, and the biggest reason everyone says English spelling is a mess, is the Great Vowel Shift: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift So when you're writing a sound in the Latin alphabet, you have two choices: - spell it like English (the only language with spelling so confusing, spelling bees are a thing) - or spell it like every other language (relatively consistent) Pinyin... chose to be consistent, like every other language. A lot of the other weirdness is based on other languages, too: for instance, "x" is pronounced "sh" is Portuguese as well.
    - geowwy 8y ago
      I'm not saying saying use English vowels or anything like that, I just mean they could have used the letters in more standard ways like MPSII does.
turtlebits 8y ago
Relying on better pronunciation of non-Chinese speakers as a form of romanization for Chinese speakers is not a good idea. Does anyone remember when Beijing was Peking? And I don't think Taiwan had an official romanization system, Wade giles seems more prevalent, and the road signs now are still a laughable mess.
- nerdponx 8y ago
  Maybe not a good idea in general, but it seems perfectly reasonable for naming your restaurant.
- geowwy 8y ago
  >And I don't think Taiwan had an official romanization system They had a few but never used any of them consistently, hence the mess.
- jhanschoo 8y ago
  Actually, Bei = Pe, in another form of romanization. "B" in Hanyu Pinyin is an unaspirated "p". In addition, "j" was indeed a "k"-like sound in the past. Mandarin Chinese underwent a linguistic process called palatalization, which softens "k"-like sounds; the same process has Italian pronounce "k" sounds as "tch", and, to a further extreme, has English and French pronounce them as "s".
  - zhte415 8y ago
    Peking, the spelling, 'Pe', well 'Pek' with a glottal stop on the 'k' comes from Cantonese from over a century ago.
- ksec 8y ago
  >Does anyone remember when Beijing was Peking? The name Peking came from Cantonese.
ksec 8y ago
This is similar to HK, Cantonese had a similar Romanization system as well, makes things trillion times easier for English Speaker to pronounce it. No idea where did the Chinese Pinyin came from.
rqs 8y ago
That take forever to summarize. How about learn PinYin from the basic? I just found this video on YouTube, can be a good start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XbQJPF817I&list=PLWXyZU_NJb_fGUFuJpqjn4vYLzpTZqhC0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XbQJPF817I&list=PLWXyZU_NJb...

mc32 8y ago

I think it’s more than embracing identity but also moving away from the bland greasy spoon cheap fare type and moving to more sophisticated and upscale variety. The compromise is to have Chinese characters reflecting one name and an unrelated and disconnected English name to appeal to both audiences. Something like: 異國風味蔬食 Vegan Chinese.

williw 8y ago

In proper Mandarin pronunciation, "Xi" sounds more like the second syllable of "missy" not "she".

Zarel 8y ago
I don't know if you pronounce "missy" differently than I do, but I pronounced the second syllable "see". And to me, Mandarin 'xi' sounds a lot more like "she" than "see".
- williw 8y ago
  You might not differentiate too well with "shi" and "si" pinyin in mandarin if you are not a native speaker. Or maybe you pronounce "she" differently. There shouldn't be a "sh" sound in "xi".
  - Zarel 8y ago
    I'm a native speaker; my first language was Mandarin. On the other hand, I'm a Southerner, so I don't usually distinguish between "sh" and "s" sounds. I can do the 卷舌 thing, though, well enough that Northerners tell me I'm doing it right, and I don't think either Pinyin "shi" or Pinyin "si" sound anything like English "she". And while I don't think Pinyin "xi" sounds exactly like English "she", I think it sounds pretty close.
csa 8y ago
... in the vernacular. Proper pronunciation is more like “she”. This is an issue lost on most native speakers of mandarin, and it’s hard as hell to teach to learners. pinyin —> proper sound —-> actual sound xi —> she —> see si —> suh —> suh shi —> shuh —> suh chi —> chuh —> tsuh ci —> tsuh —> tsuh There are more, but I’m too many beers in now to remember. The best test is to ask someone how to say 四十四是四十四 (44 is 44). It’s a good test for tones. This is properly something like /shuh suh shuh shuh shuh suh shuh/. In vernacular, this usually becomes something like /suh suh suh suh suh suh suh/ with tones being the only hint at different words. Chinese is fun.

yegle 8y ago

恭喜发财 (Gong Xi Fa Cai) was never a common greeting phrase in Mandarin speaking regions. It was more commonly used in Cantonese (thus it was more commonly written as Gong Hey Fat Choi). In Mandarin speaking regions of China it's common to say 恭贺新禧 or 新春愉快 or simply 新年好.