11 ms·

I fail to see how the "nah-gonna-work-here-anyway" joke is a racist microaggression. Being unable to pronounce a name and making a joke about it could happen ju

I fail to see how the "nah-gonna-work-here-anyway" joke is a racist microaggression. Being unable to pronounce a name and making a joke about it could happen just as easily with a name like "Tom Snuffaluffagus." I see a distinct difference between joking about a difficult name and joking about the physical attributes or ethnic history of a person of color.

gowld 8y ago
It shows that Samir Nagheenanajar doesn't quite fit in to that society (people can't remember his name), and that people take him a little less seriously than they do others, due to something that has nothing to do with his life choices and (almost) can't change. And it's something that comes from being born in a different culture with a very different language. "Nagheenanajar" isn't a difficult name in India, but it is in Silicon Valley. "microaggression" doesn't mean malicious intent, it means one of an endless series of small unpleasant things that pile up over time to make an impact.
- maceurt 8y ago
  If I go to India then, should I expect them to not make fun of my name or pronounce my name perfectly? Once any name, culture, ethnicity, becomes large enough in size in a population then people will start learning how to pronounce their name and about their culture naturally. For cultures or ethnicities that are small in size in a country, then naturally people are gonna have a harder time, because they are not as exposed to those people. It would be a net negative in time for a whole population to learn about a small subsection of the population, because it would waste more time for the general population overall than is worth saved through hurt feelings and a feeling of being unwelcome.
  - jogjayr 8y ago
    > should I expect them to not make fun of my name Absolutely yes. Anything else would be rude. > or pronounce my name perfectly? Basic courtesy demands that they make their best effort. > a net negative in time for a whole population to learn about a small subsection of the population That's a strawman. No one's asking anyone to do a deep-dive on other cultures. > it would waste more time for the general population overall than is worth saved through hurt feelings I don't think good manners take that much time. Learning and remembering people's names is universal table stakes for interpersonal interaction. A polite society is its own reward - within reason, cost benefit analyses like that are kind of silly.
    - maceurt 8y ago
      > > should I expect them to not make fun of my name > Absolutely yes. Anything else would be rude. It is not rude to poke fun or laugh at different cultures that are weird to you. Go to japan as a white person, and if you walk around a major city a lot of Japanese people will giggle at subtle things you do that are culturally different to what they are used to. Maybe I shouldn't have used the phrase "make fun of", but you get the point. Laughing at someone's name because it sounds weird is the same as laughing at jokes that poke fun at the stereotype that British people are very polite, it is difference in culture and weirdness that create humor that is perfectly fine and normal. > Basic courtesy demands that they make their best effort. I have never heard somebody not make any sort of effort to correctly pronounce someone's name. Very few people purposely want to mispronounce someone's name. This was not even the point of the argument either. The argument was whether it is disrespectful to mispronounce someone's name regardless of the effort put into trying to pronounce it. It is disrespectful to not put any effort into pronouncing someone's name, we are on the same page for that point. > That's a strawman. No one's asking anyone to do a deep-dive on other cultures. Pronouncing foreign name's is not some easy task. It takes time and research, and practice. Most people do not meet enough people who have those type of foreign names that can be practiced, to justify the time sink it takes to learn them. > I don't think good manners take that much time. Learning and remembering people's names is universal table stakes for interpersonal interaction. A polite society is its own reward - within reason, cost benefit analyses like that are kind of silly. They do when you have a country with a very diverse background of ethnicity and names like the United States has. Furthermore, Indian's represent a whopping 0.9% of the US population, immigrants when they represent such a small part of a nation should be the ones to lean into their new nation, not the other way around. Hell, their are white European names I mispronounce, it is not disrespectful by any means.
      - jogjayr 8y ago
        > Laughing at someone's name because it sounds weird is the same as laughing at jokes that poke fun at the stereotype that British people are very polite No if you don't know the person very well I think both things are rude. When you laugh at someone in their face, for their name or some other aspect of their culture, there are two possibilities: 1. They know why you're laughing and the joke is old for them, and not funny. 2. They don't know why you're laughing, and you've just made them very uncomfortable. Degree of familiarity with the person matters. It's the same as if you're overweight, you wouldn't like strangers commenting on it. But people close to you are a different matter. > a lot of Japanese people will giggle at subtle things you do that are culturally different to what they are used to Also rude. It's not something I'd do (I hope) and I'd ask anyone I knew doing it to knock it off. Giggling and mocking isn't helpful either. Depending on how bad it is, how well you know the person, and how long they're staying, you may want to tell them (in private) what they're doing wrong so they can improve. > it is difference in culture and weirdness that create humor that is perfectly fine and normal. I don't disagree about that. I've seen comedians do funny bits on cultural quirks and differences. I don't think that type of humor works outside of people you know well, or in the abstract as comedians do. At the 1-on-1 level it just makes people uncomfortable. > Pronouncing foreign name's is not some easy task. It takes time and research, and practice. Are we talking about different things? I'm not suggesting someone sit down with baby name books from different cultures and learn all the pronunciations. Here's a sample script: Person A: Hey, nice meeting you. I'm <foreign name>. Person B: Hi <foreign name>. I'm <local name>. Did I pronounce your name right? Person A: Almost. It's <repeats name, slower>. Person B: <repeats name>. And how do you spell that? Heck, I think that exchange would not be out of place at a Dale Carnegie training seminar. It'll help you remember the new person's name, and they'll feel nice that you made an effort. If they have a genuinely difficult name, like the apparently fictional "Nagheenanajar", they'll understand that you tried and that's enough. > Indian's represent a whopping 0.9% of the US population, immigrants when they represent such a small part of a nation should be the ones to lean into their new nation, not the other way around. Who said it should be the other way around? Knowing how to pronounce an Indian colleague's name and knowing about the origin of Diwali are different things. The first is something you should try to do for any human being. The second is 100% optional and only for people who are interested.
- stevenjohns 8y ago
  Your comment actually serves to highlight how inappropriate it is to suggest it is racist. 1. The character was originally written as Iranian, then rewritten to be Jordanian. He is not Indian. I don't see why the name would be easy in India. They hired an Indian actor to play him, which is probably the only questionable thing in all of this. 2. The name isn't a real name. You can try to search ناجحينانجر‎ (Nagheenanajar), ناجحينانذر‎ (Nagheenanadhar), ناجحين النذر‎ (Nagheen al-Nadhar) or ناجحين النجر (Nagheen al-Najar) and see that you won't have much luck. At best it is a full name (both first and last) in and of itself. It's clearly written to be difficult to pronounce. I imagine the actor sat in a room and practiced for a couple of hours to be able to say it as easily as he did. 3. I'm from that region of the world, my first language is from that region of the world and I can tell you whole heartily that that name is extremely difficult to pronounce. I tried about four times and gave up. It's only when writing it in Arabic script that I was able to make sense of what I was reading. At best, the Latin spelling used is a butchering of the Arabic spelling. Anybody with a name like that would know it's difficult to pronounce as well, I don't think they'd be upset - and I don't think they should have a right to suggest that others are being offensive when they have difficulties as well. There are real applications when people are being dicks (some people would intentionally mispronounce my father's first name, which is pronounced as it reads and is four letters long..) but the Office Space name was intentionally made to be ridiculous.
  - Robin_Message 8y ago
    (long time since I saw the movie) From what I'm reading here, the audience and characters don't know and aren't expected to know that. The name is hard for them because it is foreign to them. To turn the name into a joke that they are 'never gonna work here anyway' explicitly links the racist prejudice against them to their name. The name was probably especially ridiculous because they wanted to make the pun above, but the point is the racism surely, not the everyday humour in linking a foreign person's name to their non-employment?
  - jayd16 8y ago
    You're really focusing on the idea its a joke about his name and that makes it racist. That's not what is being implied in the film. Instead, realize its a joke about not being in the boys club because he's not like the leadership, he's different and yeah he has a silly name so fuck 'em.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  > "microaggression" doesn't mean malicious intent, it means one of an endless series of small unpleasant things that pile up over time to make an impact. Disagree. For a series of small, unpleasant, but otherwise unintentional, things, we have plenty of established words - including the very word "unpleasant". The term "microaggression" was created in order to enable blaming and condemning people at high enough granularity that a narrative of constant oppression could be established. Note how the word "aggression" absolutely does imply intent.
jasonshen 8y ago
I think you're asking a genuine question so I'll give a genuine answer - because people do not control their names, just as they don't control their physical features or ethnic history. The names that are "easy" are typically names that stem from the English language. Just as saying you feel "uncomfortable" around a person of color or someone wearing religious headgear is a microaggression, so is making fun of someone's name because you find it difficult to pronounce. It is likely easy to pronounce in that person's culture, just not for you. And they've probably heard a million jokes about it so are unlikely to find it funny. Therefore your "joke" provides humor to you and others who feel like you, at that person's expense. Yes, you can legally change your name but it takes a lot of time and effort and could cause you a lot of grief with your family and professional confusion.
- mc32 8y ago
  When you pay at a supermarket, often the cashiers are supposed to say thank you for shopping with us mr/ms Lastname. I’ve had many be unable to pronounce my last name and simply spell out the initial or fade into a mumble, is that a micro aggression? Mine is a simple last name to pronounce for native English speakers. Do I call these people microagressprs?
  - mzybert 8y ago
    > When you pay at a supermarket, often the cashiers are supposed to say thank you for shopping with us mr/ms Lastname. Wait, what? That's creepy.
    - _grep_ 8y ago
      How is that creepy? It is normal to use someone's name to address them.
  - AQuantized 8y ago
    I think he was specifically referring to people making a joke about the name, rather than those who are merely unable to pronounce it.
KuhlMensch 8y ago
So I can't profess to know much about PC/inclusive language (or whatever the kids call it these days), but: The way I see it, is its an unwanted highlighting of an ethnic difference, in a non-inclusive way. The same way that unsolicited comments on certain physical features of is giving unwanted attention to those features. Especially if those features are a sensitive subject (e.g. part of the sexual dimorphism). Of course you can do it when you have the other persons trust, or invitation.
jayd16 8y ago
Not all jokes about silly names are racist, but in the context of the scene the dismissal of the name is implying "and this guy is foreign, we didn't even bother learning his name so obviously he's fired."

gowld 8y ago

It shows that Samir Nagheenanajar doesn't quite fit in to that society (people can't remember his name), and that people take him a little less seriously than they do others, due to something that has nothing to do with his life choices and (almost) can't change. And it's something that comes from being born in a different culture with a very different language. "Nagheenanajar" isn't a difficult name in India, but it is in Silicon Valley. "microaggression" doesn't mean malicious intent, it means one of an endless series of small unpleasant things that pile up over time to make an impact.

maceurt 8y ago
If I go to India then, should I expect them to not make fun of my name or pronounce my name perfectly? Once any name, culture, ethnicity, becomes large enough in size in a population then people will start learning how to pronounce their name and about their culture naturally. For cultures or ethnicities that are small in size in a country, then naturally people are gonna have a harder time, because they are not as exposed to those people. It would be a net negative in time for a whole population to learn about a small subsection of the population, because it would waste more time for the general population overall than is worth saved through hurt feelings and a feeling of being unwelcome.
- jogjayr 8y ago
  > should I expect them to not make fun of my name Absolutely yes. Anything else would be rude. > or pronounce my name perfectly? Basic courtesy demands that they make their best effort. > a net negative in time for a whole population to learn about a small subsection of the population That's a strawman. No one's asking anyone to do a deep-dive on other cultures. > it would waste more time for the general population overall than is worth saved through hurt feelings I don't think good manners take that much time. Learning and remembering people's names is universal table stakes for interpersonal interaction. A polite society is its own reward - within reason, cost benefit analyses like that are kind of silly.
  - maceurt 8y ago
    > > should I expect them to not make fun of my name > Absolutely yes. Anything else would be rude. It is not rude to poke fun or laugh at different cultures that are weird to you. Go to japan as a white person, and if you walk around a major city a lot of Japanese people will giggle at subtle things you do that are culturally different to what they are used to. Maybe I shouldn't have used the phrase "make fun of", but you get the point. Laughing at someone's name because it sounds weird is the same as laughing at jokes that poke fun at the stereotype that British people are very polite, it is difference in culture and weirdness that create humor that is perfectly fine and normal. > Basic courtesy demands that they make their best effort. I have never heard somebody not make any sort of effort to correctly pronounce someone's name. Very few people purposely want to mispronounce someone's name. This was not even the point of the argument either. The argument was whether it is disrespectful to mispronounce someone's name regardless of the effort put into trying to pronounce it. It is disrespectful to not put any effort into pronouncing someone's name, we are on the same page for that point. > That's a strawman. No one's asking anyone to do a deep-dive on other cultures. Pronouncing foreign name's is not some easy task. It takes time and research, and practice. Most people do not meet enough people who have those type of foreign names that can be practiced, to justify the time sink it takes to learn them. > I don't think good manners take that much time. Learning and remembering people's names is universal table stakes for interpersonal interaction. A polite society is its own reward - within reason, cost benefit analyses like that are kind of silly. They do when you have a country with a very diverse background of ethnicity and names like the United States has. Furthermore, Indian's represent a whopping 0.9% of the US population, immigrants when they represent such a small part of a nation should be the ones to lean into their new nation, not the other way around. Hell, their are white European names I mispronounce, it is not disrespectful by any means.
    - jogjayr 8y ago
      > Laughing at someone's name because it sounds weird is the same as laughing at jokes that poke fun at the stereotype that British people are very polite No if you don't know the person very well I think both things are rude. When you laugh at someone in their face, for their name or some other aspect of their culture, there are two possibilities: 1. They know why you're laughing and the joke is old for them, and not funny. 2. They don't know why you're laughing, and you've just made them very uncomfortable. Degree of familiarity with the person matters. It's the same as if you're overweight, you wouldn't like strangers commenting on it. But people close to you are a different matter. > a lot of Japanese people will giggle at subtle things you do that are culturally different to what they are used to Also rude. It's not something I'd do (I hope) and I'd ask anyone I knew doing it to knock it off. Giggling and mocking isn't helpful either. Depending on how bad it is, how well you know the person, and how long they're staying, you may want to tell them (in private) what they're doing wrong so they can improve. > it is difference in culture and weirdness that create humor that is perfectly fine and normal. I don't disagree about that. I've seen comedians do funny bits on cultural quirks and differences. I don't think that type of humor works outside of people you know well, or in the abstract as comedians do. At the 1-on-1 level it just makes people uncomfortable. > Pronouncing foreign name's is not some easy task. It takes time and research, and practice. Are we talking about different things? I'm not suggesting someone sit down with baby name books from different cultures and learn all the pronunciations. Here's a sample script: Person A: Hey, nice meeting you. I'm <foreign name>. Person B: Hi <foreign name>. I'm <local name>. Did I pronounce your name right? Person A: Almost. It's <repeats name, slower>. Person B: <repeats name>. And how do you spell that? Heck, I think that exchange would not be out of place at a Dale Carnegie training seminar. It'll help you remember the new person's name, and they'll feel nice that you made an effort. If they have a genuinely difficult name, like the apparently fictional "Nagheenanajar", they'll understand that you tried and that's enough. > Indian's represent a whopping 0.9% of the US population, immigrants when they represent such a small part of a nation should be the ones to lean into their new nation, not the other way around. Who said it should be the other way around? Knowing how to pronounce an Indian colleague's name and knowing about the origin of Diwali are different things. The first is something you should try to do for any human being. The second is 100% optional and only for people who are interested.
stevenjohns 8y ago
Your comment actually serves to highlight how inappropriate it is to suggest it is racist. 1. The character was originally written as Iranian, then rewritten to be Jordanian. He is not Indian. I don't see why the name would be easy in India. They hired an Indian actor to play him, which is probably the only questionable thing in all of this. 2. The name isn't a real name. You can try to search ناجحينانجر‎ (Nagheenanajar), ناجحينانذر‎ (Nagheenanadhar), ناجحين النذر‎ (Nagheen al-Nadhar) or ناجحين النجر (Nagheen al-Najar) and see that you won't have much luck. At best it is a full name (both first and last) in and of itself. It's clearly written to be difficult to pronounce. I imagine the actor sat in a room and practiced for a couple of hours to be able to say it as easily as he did. 3. I'm from that region of the world, my first language is from that region of the world and I can tell you whole heartily that that name is extremely difficult to pronounce. I tried about four times and gave up. It's only when writing it in Arabic script that I was able to make sense of what I was reading. At best, the Latin spelling used is a butchering of the Arabic spelling. Anybody with a name like that would know it's difficult to pronounce as well, I don't think they'd be upset - and I don't think they should have a right to suggest that others are being offensive when they have difficulties as well. There are real applications when people are being dicks (some people would intentionally mispronounce my father's first name, which is pronounced as it reads and is four letters long..) but the Office Space name was intentionally made to be ridiculous.
- Robin_Message 8y ago
  (long time since I saw the movie) From what I'm reading here, the audience and characters don't know and aren't expected to know that. The name is hard for them because it is foreign to them. To turn the name into a joke that they are 'never gonna work here anyway' explicitly links the racist prejudice against them to their name. The name was probably especially ridiculous because they wanted to make the pun above, but the point is the racism surely, not the everyday humour in linking a foreign person's name to their non-employment?
- jayd16 8y ago
  You're really focusing on the idea its a joke about his name and that makes it racist. That's not what is being implied in the film. Instead, realize its a joke about not being in the boys club because he's not like the leadership, he's different and yeah he has a silly name so fuck 'em.
TeMPOraL 8y ago
> "microaggression" doesn't mean malicious intent, it means one of an endless series of small unpleasant things that pile up over time to make an impact. Disagree. For a series of small, unpleasant, but otherwise unintentional, things, we have plenty of established words - including the very word "unpleasant". The term "microaggression" was created in order to enable blaming and condemning people at high enough granularity that a narrative of constant oppression could be established. Note how the word "aggression" absolutely does imply intent.

jasonshen 8y ago

I think you're asking a genuine question so I'll give a genuine answer - because people do not control their names, just as they don't control their physical features or ethnic history. The names that are "easy" are typically names that stem from the English language. Just as saying you feel "uncomfortable" around a person of color or someone wearing religious headgear is a microaggression, so is making fun of someone's name because you find it difficult to pronounce. It is likely easy to pronounce in that person's culture, just not for you. And they've probably heard a million jokes about it so are unlikely to find it funny. Therefore your "joke" provides humor to you and others who feel like you, at that person's expense. Yes, you can legally change your name but it takes a lot of time and effort and could cause you a lot of grief with your family and professional confusion.

mc32 8y ago
When you pay at a supermarket, often the cashiers are supposed to say thank you for shopping with us mr/ms Lastname. I’ve had many be unable to pronounce my last name and simply spell out the initial or fade into a mumble, is that a micro aggression? Mine is a simple last name to pronounce for native English speakers. Do I call these people microagressprs?
- mzybert 8y ago
  > When you pay at a supermarket, often the cashiers are supposed to say thank you for shopping with us mr/ms Lastname. Wait, what? That's creepy.
  - _grep_ 8y ago
    How is that creepy? It is normal to use someone's name to address them.
- AQuantized 8y ago
  I think he was specifically referring to people making a joke about the name, rather than those who are merely unable to pronounce it.

KuhlMensch 8y ago

So I can't profess to know much about PC/inclusive language (or whatever the kids call it these days), but: The way I see it, is its an unwanted highlighting of an ethnic difference, in a non-inclusive way. The same way that unsolicited comments on certain physical features of is giving unwanted attention to those features. Especially if those features are a sensitive subject (e.g. part of the sexual dimorphism). Of course you can do it when you have the other persons trust, or invitation.

jayd16 8y ago

Not all jokes about silly names are racist, but in the context of the scene the dismissal of the name is implying "and this guy is foreign, we didn't even bother learning his name so obviously he's fired."