5 ms·

Ketamine treatments are pretty expensive at a clinic. If you wanted regular Ketamine doses for depression (maybe like 1 a month?), I would just buy some online

by mruts 8y ago

Ketamine treatments are pretty expensive at a clinic. If you wanted regular Ketamine doses for depression (maybe like 1 a month?), I would just buy some online and insufflate it. Safer than a needle and just as effective. PS: Chronic Ketamine use destroys your urinary tract (I know people that wet the bed every night from too much of the stuff). Also, it might cause brain damage, but no one is really sure.

ketathrowaway 8y ago
This is not strictly true. Chronic ketamine ABuse can cause urinary tract problems. The doses and frequency used in a clinical session emphatically do not cause this problem. Ketamine has been in regular use since 1970 for a wide range of medical purposes. It's also been on the WHO Essential Medicines List since 1985. tl;dr - don't need to worry about urinary tract issues unless you're using the drug (1) recreationally; (2) irresponsibly
- senorjazz 8y ago
  I only know hearsay, but the issue effects those sniffing 2-3+ grams a day, every day for extending periods. The ketamine causes internal scarring of the bladder / urinary tract (not sure which or if either), that scarring stops the organ (maybe wrong word) from expanding and contracting. So you feel like you need to piss regularly, but only a few drips come out. The damage can get so severe bladder gets removed. At the lesser end of the damage is agonising stomach cramps, no idea what the cause of this is. source: spent too long in the uk freeparty rave scene when ketamine was legal and people assumed it was completely safe due to lack of come down. Too many people ended up with severe ketamine addictions and many have to know piss through a bag
  - mruts 8y ago
    Though there hasn't been much research on it, I suspect that methoxetamine (MXE) might have the same anti-depressant effects as ketamine. Also, it doesn't have the urinary tract issues. Also, it's much much cheaper on the black market than ketamine. We're talking around 1000 (recreational) doses for $20. Compared to say 10 (recreational) doses of ketamine for maybe $50?
    - goatsi 8y ago
      >Also, it's much much cheaper on the black market than ketamine. What is it like to still be living in 2014? MXE hasn't been manufactured in any significant quantity since China banned it years ago. The stockpiles that remained have been stretched out at high prices and have significantly degraded over the years, people are reporting needing 2-3x the previous dose.
      - mruts 8y ago
        I guess I don't know what I'm talking about anymore. Stopped all that stuff awhile ago. Probably shouldn't be giving advice on the internet about it anymore I suppose..
      - LaikaF 8y ago
        The last big batch was proven via test to be 30% caffeine by weight. I can't imagine people stopped cutting it.
    - LaikaF 8y ago
      MXE does. So does 2-Fluorodeschloroketamine, deschloroketamine, and several others. The issue is once you step off the PCM chain you have hider chance of a side effect of mania. MXE does have the same bladder issues, but is taken as a smaller dose so it takes longer to happen.
  - ketathrowaway 8y ago
    2-3+ grams a day is crazy. Ketamine from a legit clinic is around 100mg give or take based on body weight, once per 3-6 weeks. If you increase the dose of any safe drug by that many orders of magnitude, yes, your body will be harmed!
SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
> I would just buy some online and insufflate it. Safer than a needle and just as effective. You're advocating buying a black market substance online and then snorting it as the safer option?
- jokowueu 8y ago
  That's what most do with ketamine to reduce chance of infection . U could also buy a reagent to test it before use . Only issue I see with intranasal is that bioavailability is only 33%
- mruts 8y ago
  Are you saying that buying a black market substance and injecting it would be the safer option?
  - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
    No, I'd suggest using a clinic.
    - mruts 8y ago
      If you read my comment. I'm suggesting that you don't inject ketamine and instead you should snort it. I'm not suggesting that snorting black market ketamine is safer than a clinic. Though, ketamine is pretty damn safe, and it's rarely adulterated on the black market. In powder form, it forms crystals so it's hard to fake. A priori, you can always say that something regulated is more safe than something not. But if you're a savvy consumer, you can significantly mitigate or eliminate that risk.
      - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
        So in this case this has nothing to do with treating suicidal ideation and instead strictly for recreational consumption?
        8y ago
jokowueu 8y ago
The chronic users are on very very high doses . It does happen on users who take low doses but much less compared to others . U need to flush ur system with liqueds according to harm reductions guides Also egcg seems to completely block it's damaging effects https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1879522615004157 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187952261...
trumped 8y ago
Is it possible to get some from your local veterinarian?
- mruts 8y ago
  Absolutely. If you're friends, of course. Or maybe if you have enough money? But at that point, you might as well just go to the clinic.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
ZeroFries 8y ago
If you want tighter control, I.M. ketamine using a micron filter is the way to go.
ketathrowaway 8y ago
> I would just buy some online and insufflate it. Safer than a needle and just as effective. Insufflation is only "just as effective" if your goal is to get an intense psychedelic high. If your goal is a strong antidepressant effect, insufflation is extremely less effective than IV-drip-over-40min. This isn't just my opinion, it's the consensus opinion of ketamine docs across the world. Insufflation helps you for a few minutes to a few days, IV drip method works for 3-6 weeks.
- atomical 8y ago
  Ketamine is an off label treatment. Many of the practitioners aren't even psychiatrists. There are nurses, anesthesiologists, and pain specialists that do this as a side gig to make money. Your statement reads like we should put a lot of trust in these people when it's actually the opposite. One of the biggest clinics just hired a CEO to expand their business. The time that the effect lasts is variable. A patient may need an infusion every week. That's $26,000 a year in some cases. I actually had a doctor tell me that the infusions last 6 months.
  - ketathrowaway 8y ago
    Yes, I am indeed saying you should trust the opinions of people with medical training and experience. Especially doctors that have been treating depression with ketamine for years. Whether or not they're an anesthesiologist or one of the handful of people in the entire world that are both an anesthesiologist and a psychiatrist. (All of my ketamine docs require you to also see a psychiatrist, so that profession is still completely involved for me.) My previous doctor runs a monthly group meeting where patients get together to discuss their experiences. The vast majority of attendees had positive experiences. So even if you don't trust the doctor, you can trust the living proof of positive outcomes. Sure, you could say that the group self-selects for positive outcomes, but no one claims this treatment is 100% effective, either.
    - atomical 8y ago
      My doctor has been treating ketamine for years and he says that these doctors you are talking about are screwing patients. My doctor is more reputable: A) he has clinical research experience and B) he isn't making any more money than he would on other treatments for depression. Yes, ketamine docs want you to see a psychiatrist because they don't want to deal with you. It's about the money and having as little responsibility as possible. A support group to discuss experiences? That sounds like it would encourage a placebo effect.

by mruts 8y ago

ketathrowaway 8y ago

This is not strictly true. Chronic ketamine ABuse can cause urinary tract problems. The doses and frequency used in a clinical session emphatically do not cause this problem. Ketamine has been in regular use since 1970 for a wide range of medical purposes. It's also been on the WHO Essential Medicines List since 1985. tl;dr - don't need to worry about urinary tract issues unless you're using the drug (1) recreationally; (2) irresponsibly

senorjazz 8y ago
I only know hearsay, but the issue effects those sniffing 2-3+ grams a day, every day for extending periods. The ketamine causes internal scarring of the bladder / urinary tract (not sure which or if either), that scarring stops the organ (maybe wrong word) from expanding and contracting. So you feel like you need to piss regularly, but only a few drips come out. The damage can get so severe bladder gets removed. At the lesser end of the damage is agonising stomach cramps, no idea what the cause of this is. source: spent too long in the uk freeparty rave scene when ketamine was legal and people assumed it was completely safe due to lack of come down. Too many people ended up with severe ketamine addictions and many have to know piss through a bag
- mruts 8y ago
  Though there hasn't been much research on it, I suspect that methoxetamine (MXE) might have the same anti-depressant effects as ketamine. Also, it doesn't have the urinary tract issues. Also, it's much much cheaper on the black market than ketamine. We're talking around 1000 (recreational) doses for $20. Compared to say 10 (recreational) doses of ketamine for maybe $50?
  - goatsi 8y ago
    >Also, it's much much cheaper on the black market than ketamine. What is it like to still be living in 2014? MXE hasn't been manufactured in any significant quantity since China banned it years ago. The stockpiles that remained have been stretched out at high prices and have significantly degraded over the years, people are reporting needing 2-3x the previous dose.
    - mruts 8y ago
      I guess I don't know what I'm talking about anymore. Stopped all that stuff awhile ago. Probably shouldn't be giving advice on the internet about it anymore I suppose..
    - LaikaF 8y ago
      The last big batch was proven via test to be 30% caffeine by weight. I can't imagine people stopped cutting it.
  - LaikaF 8y ago
    MXE does. So does 2-Fluorodeschloroketamine, deschloroketamine, and several others. The issue is once you step off the PCM chain you have hider chance of a side effect of mania. MXE does have the same bladder issues, but is taken as a smaller dose so it takes longer to happen.
- ketathrowaway 8y ago
  2-3+ grams a day is crazy. Ketamine from a legit clinic is around 100mg give or take based on body weight, once per 3-6 weeks. If you increase the dose of any safe drug by that many orders of magnitude, yes, your body will be harmed!

SketchySeaBeast 8y ago

> I would just buy some online and insufflate it. Safer than a needle and just as effective. You're advocating buying a black market substance online and then snorting it as the safer option?

jokowueu 8y ago
That's what most do with ketamine to reduce chance of infection . U could also buy a reagent to test it before use . Only issue I see with intranasal is that bioavailability is only 33%
mruts 8y ago
Are you saying that buying a black market substance and injecting it would be the safer option?
- SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
  No, I'd suggest using a clinic.
  - mruts 8y ago
    If you read my comment. I'm suggesting that you don't inject ketamine and instead you should snort it. I'm not suggesting that snorting black market ketamine is safer than a clinic. Though, ketamine is pretty damn safe, and it's rarely adulterated on the black market. In powder form, it forms crystals so it's hard to fake. A priori, you can always say that something regulated is more safe than something not. But if you're a savvy consumer, you can significantly mitigate or eliminate that risk.
    - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
      So in this case this has nothing to do with treating suicidal ideation and instead strictly for recreational consumption?
      - 8y ago

jokowueu 8y ago

The chronic users are on very very high doses . It does happen on users who take low doses but much less compared to others . U need to flush ur system with liqueds according to harm reductions guides Also egcg seems to completely block it's damaging effects https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1879522615004157 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187952261...

trumped 8y ago

Is it possible to get some from your local veterinarian?

mruts 8y ago
Absolutely. If you're friends, of course. Or maybe if you have enough money? But at that point, you might as well just go to the clinic.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

ZeroFries 8y ago

If you want tighter control, I.M. ketamine using a micron filter is the way to go.

ketathrowaway 8y ago

> I would just buy some online and insufflate it. Safer than a needle and just as effective. Insufflation is only "just as effective" if your goal is to get an intense psychedelic high. If your goal is a strong antidepressant effect, insufflation is extremely less effective than IV-drip-over-40min. This isn't just my opinion, it's the consensus opinion of ketamine docs across the world. Insufflation helps you for a few minutes to a few days, IV drip method works for 3-6 weeks.

atomical 8y ago
Ketamine is an off label treatment. Many of the practitioners aren't even psychiatrists. There are nurses, anesthesiologists, and pain specialists that do this as a side gig to make money. Your statement reads like we should put a lot of trust in these people when it's actually the opposite. One of the biggest clinics just hired a CEO to expand their business. The time that the effect lasts is variable. A patient may need an infusion every week. That's $26,000 a year in some cases. I actually had a doctor tell me that the infusions last 6 months.
- ketathrowaway 8y ago
  Yes, I am indeed saying you should trust the opinions of people with medical training and experience. Especially doctors that have been treating depression with ketamine for years. Whether or not they're an anesthesiologist or one of the handful of people in the entire world that are both an anesthesiologist and a psychiatrist. (All of my ketamine docs require you to also see a psychiatrist, so that profession is still completely involved for me.) My previous doctor runs a monthly group meeting where patients get together to discuss their experiences. The vast majority of attendees had positive experiences. So even if you don't trust the doctor, you can trust the living proof of positive outcomes. Sure, you could say that the group self-selects for positive outcomes, but no one claims this treatment is 100% effective, either.
  - atomical 8y ago
    My doctor has been treating ketamine for years and he says that these doctors you are talking about are screwing patients. My doctor is more reputable: A) he has clinical research experience and B) he isn't making any more money than he would on other treatments for depression. Yes, ketamine docs want you to see a psychiatrist because they don't want to deal with you. It's about the money and having as little responsibility as possible. A support group to discuss experiences? That sounds like it would encourage a placebo effect.