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==solely middle-class country== Isn't it possible that the reason their middle-class is so large is due in some part on political decisions they've made? I th

==solely middle-class country== Isn't it possible that the reason their middle-class is so large is due in some part on political decisions they've made? I think it is at least worth exploring before we jump to the ethnic breakdown of the country. Political choices are something we can change relatively quickly compared to demographics. The US has a higher GDP per capita than Sweden and Denmark which implies that there is more money to spread around even with a comparatively large immigrant population.

AndrewKemendo 8y ago
Yes however the demographic diversity in the US makes it less likely for people to want to "spread it" around. If your entire country is the population of one large US metro and everyone is the same ethnicity and culture, there are fewer cognitive impediments to being empathetic at scale.
- sharemywin 8y ago
  Personally, I believe that rich people will find a way to justify being more rich. If not they'll hire some economists from Harvard to come up with some good excuses.
- moorhosj 8y ago
  ==everyone is the same ethnicity and culture== I think depends on how you define ethnicity and culture. Sweden foreign-born population - 17.0% [1] US foreign-born population - 13.7% [2] [1] https://nordic.businessinsider.com/swedens-foreign-born-population-is-nearly-17-million-people---finns-are-the-biggest-group-2017-3 https://nordic.businessinsider.com/swedens-foreign-born-popu... [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-data/u-s-foreign-born-population-swells-to-highest-in-over-a-century-idUSKCN1LT2HZ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-data/u-s-...
  - AndrewKemendo 8y ago
    Using just the census designated measures would be a fine start. Foreign born population wouldn't begin to address diversity in the US. In Sweden it might be the case that foreign born population is the only source of ethnic diversity. Whereas in the US, the people in northern Maine live in a completely different world than the people in Southern Florida.
    - moorhosj 8y ago
      ==Whereas in the US, the people in northern Maine live in a completely different world than the people in Southern Florida.== And your contention is that Stockholm, Malmo, Kiruna, Haparanda and Skalstugan are all the same?
      - AndrewKemendo 8y ago
        My contention is that median variability of cultural attributes between those cities is signifcantly less than median variability of cultural attributes in US cities.
        moorhosj 8y ago
        That is a fair observation. To clarify, you think that makes it harder to find political solutions because people don't feel they are "in it together"?
        AndrewKemendo 8y ago
        Exactly. The easier it is to find differences in your group and another group under the same organization, especially with a weak overarching culture, the less likely those groups will coordinate politically and economically.
  - sol_remmy2 8y ago
    US white, non-Hispanic population: 61.3%.... Swedish white, non-Hispanic population: easily 90%+
    - AndrewKemendo 8y ago
      Ok great. Now segment that further into cultural and lingusitic differences. The 250,000 "white non-Hispanic" people in Louisiana speaking Creole Patois can't communicate easily with the 200,000 or so "white non-Hispanic" people who speak Appalachian English. "Race" is a starting point, within which there are so many variances in the US. I've traveled a lot of places, but I've yet to find anywhere in the world as diverse at such a wide scale as that in the US. It's messy, violent, uncertain and magnificent.
      - moorhosj 8y ago
        And those distinctions existed when the US middle class was far more robust. You still haven’t proven that demographics and not politics is the cause.
    - moorhosj 8y ago
      ==Swedish white, non-Hispanic population: easily 90%+== Not only is this contention wrong [1], it is completely arbitrary. Ethnicity isn't just how you want to draw lines to prove some point. Sweden has multiple ethnicities within what you call "Swedish white, non-Hispanic". This is observed, most obviously, through different dialects and cultures. Swedes that border Norway are different than Swedes that border Finland. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sweden
      - toasterlovin 8y ago
        And white people in the U.S. are also not homogeneous. So what? The U.S. has multiple metropolitan areas that each has a larger population and more ethnic diversity than the smaller European countries. And that's before you even consider the country as a whole.
  - barberousse 8y ago
    Isn't this expected when Sweden has a significantly lower population than the US?
- specialist 8y ago
  One argument is the left wing split when the white suburban middle class stopped supporting taxing itself to fund the social safety net. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/9/14543938/donald-trump-richard-rorty-election-liberalism-conservatives https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/9/14543938/do... "Members of labor unions, and unorganized unskilled workers, will sooner or later realize that their government is not even trying to prevent wages from sinking or to prevent jobs from being exported. Around the same time, they will realize that suburban white-collar workers — themselves desperately afraid of being downsized — are not going to let themselves be taxed to provide social benefits for anyone else. At that point, something will crack. The nonsuburban electorate will decide that the system has failed and start looking for a strongman to vote for — someone willing to assure them that, once he is elected, the smug bureaucrats, tricky lawyers, overpaid bond salesmen, and postmodernist professors will no longer be calling the shots." -- Richard Rorty [1997]
specialist 8y ago
"Isn't it possible that the reason their middle-class is so large is due in some part on political decisions they've made?" The USA previously decided three times to explicitly create its middle class. The New Deal, the Homestead Act, etc. Policy choices which were hard fought and narrowly won. Wealth and Democracy: How Great Fortunes and Government Created America's Aristocracy by Kevin Phillips https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Democracy-Fortunes-Government-Aristocracy-ebook/dp/B000QEJ0U6 https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Democracy-Fortunes-Government-... Without active redistribution, accelerating inequity is inevitable. That the rich get richer is just math. Not a value statement. Plan accordingly.

AndrewKemendo 8y ago

Yes however the demographic diversity in the US makes it less likely for people to want to "spread it" around. If your entire country is the population of one large US metro and everyone is the same ethnicity and culture, there are fewer cognitive impediments to being empathetic at scale.

sharemywin 8y ago
Personally, I believe that rich people will find a way to justify being more rich. If not they'll hire some economists from Harvard to come up with some good excuses.
moorhosj 8y ago
==everyone is the same ethnicity and culture== I think depends on how you define ethnicity and culture. Sweden foreign-born population - 17.0% [1] US foreign-born population - 13.7% [2] [1] https://nordic.businessinsider.com/swedens-foreign-born-population-is-nearly-17-million-people---finns-are-the-biggest-group-2017-3 https://nordic.businessinsider.com/swedens-foreign-born-popu... [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-data/u-s-foreign-born-population-swells-to-highest-in-over-a-century-idUSKCN1LT2HZ https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-data/u-s-...
- AndrewKemendo 8y ago
  Using just the census designated measures would be a fine start. Foreign born population wouldn't begin to address diversity in the US. In Sweden it might be the case that foreign born population is the only source of ethnic diversity. Whereas in the US, the people in northern Maine live in a completely different world than the people in Southern Florida.
  - moorhosj 8y ago
    ==Whereas in the US, the people in northern Maine live in a completely different world than the people in Southern Florida.== And your contention is that Stockholm, Malmo, Kiruna, Haparanda and Skalstugan are all the same?
    - AndrewKemendo 8y ago
      My contention is that median variability of cultural attributes between those cities is signifcantly less than median variability of cultural attributes in US cities.
      - moorhosj 8y ago
        That is a fair observation. To clarify, you think that makes it harder to find political solutions because people don't feel they are "in it together"?
        AndrewKemendo 8y ago
        Exactly. The easier it is to find differences in your group and another group under the same organization, especially with a weak overarching culture, the less likely those groups will coordinate politically and economically.
- sol_remmy2 8y ago
  US white, non-Hispanic population: 61.3%.... Swedish white, non-Hispanic population: easily 90%+
  - AndrewKemendo 8y ago
    Ok great. Now segment that further into cultural and lingusitic differences. The 250,000 "white non-Hispanic" people in Louisiana speaking Creole Patois can't communicate easily with the 200,000 or so "white non-Hispanic" people who speak Appalachian English. "Race" is a starting point, within which there are so many variances in the US. I've traveled a lot of places, but I've yet to find anywhere in the world as diverse at such a wide scale as that in the US. It's messy, violent, uncertain and magnificent.
    - moorhosj 8y ago
      And those distinctions existed when the US middle class was far more robust. You still haven’t proven that demographics and not politics is the cause.
  - moorhosj 8y ago
    ==Swedish white, non-Hispanic population: easily 90%+== Not only is this contention wrong [1], it is completely arbitrary. Ethnicity isn't just how you want to draw lines to prove some point. Sweden has multiple ethnicities within what you call "Swedish white, non-Hispanic". This is observed, most obviously, through different dialects and cultures. Swedes that border Norway are different than Swedes that border Finland. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sweden
    - toasterlovin 8y ago
      And white people in the U.S. are also not homogeneous. So what? The U.S. has multiple metropolitan areas that each has a larger population and more ethnic diversity than the smaller European countries. And that's before you even consider the country as a whole.
- barberousse 8y ago
  Isn't this expected when Sweden has a significantly lower population than the US?
specialist 8y ago
One argument is the left wing split when the white suburban middle class stopped supporting taxing itself to fund the social safety net. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/9/14543938/donald-trump-richard-rorty-election-liberalism-conservatives https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/9/14543938/do... "Members of labor unions, and unorganized unskilled workers, will sooner or later realize that their government is not even trying to prevent wages from sinking or to prevent jobs from being exported. Around the same time, they will realize that suburban white-collar workers — themselves desperately afraid of being downsized — are not going to let themselves be taxed to provide social benefits for anyone else. At that point, something will crack. The nonsuburban electorate will decide that the system has failed and start looking for a strongman to vote for — someone willing to assure them that, once he is elected, the smug bureaucrats, tricky lawyers, overpaid bond salesmen, and postmodernist professors will no longer be calling the shots." -- Richard Rorty [1997]

specialist 8y ago

"Isn't it possible that the reason their middle-class is so large is due in some part on political decisions they've made?" The USA previously decided three times to explicitly create its middle class. The New Deal, the Homestead Act, etc. Policy choices which were hard fought and narrowly won. Wealth and Democracy: How Great Fortunes and Government Created America's Aristocracy by Kevin Phillips https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Democracy-Fortunes-Government-Aristocracy-ebook/dp/B000QEJ0U6 https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Democracy-Fortunes-Government-... Without active redistribution, accelerating inequity is inevitable. That the rich get richer is just math. Not a value statement. Plan accordingly.