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The United States is pretty settled as a sovereign nation. The EU is on a roadmap for complete integration along the model of the USA. It's not unreasonable f

The United States is pretty settled as a sovereign nation. The EU is on a roadmap for complete integration along the model of the USA. It's not unreasonable for people to stop and question whether this is what they want when they see that they have no power to oppose disagreeable, draconian laws like this one.

calcifer 8y ago
> The EU is on a roadmap for complete integration along the model of the USA. That's news to me, especially since multiple EU sources have repeatedly denied this claim over the years. Could you provide a link to this roadmap of yours?
- timrichard 8y ago
  Not an official roadmap with regular press releases, but EU Officials (especially recently) are usually quite candid in media interviews about the direction the project is going in. You can see this for yourself in the expansion of power and reach since formation in 1993, and in every treaty since Maastricht. [1] https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/macron-urges-greater-european-integration-in-address-to-bundestag-1.3702249 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/macron-urges-gr... [2] https://www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-emmanuel-macron-eu-army-to-complement-nato/ https://www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-emmanuel-macro... [3] https://www.ft.com/content/18eb3400-989b-11e7-a652-cde3f882dd7b https://www.ft.com/content/18eb3400-989b-11e7-a652-cde3f882d...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- dageshi 8y ago
  Has there ever been a time when the EU has devolved power back to the nations within it? I can't ever recall something like that happening. But every decade or so there's a new EU treaty that transfers more power to the EU, eventually you end up with something that looks like the EU as the country and the old nation states as the provinces, but it happens so slowly over time that nobody really stops and asks if that's what everyone wants.
  - fmjrey 8y ago
    In France they did ask. In 1992 there was a referendum about Maastricht, where the 'yes' had a tiny lead over the 'no'. In 2005 the French people voted a resounding 'no' to the European consitution , so did the Dutch if I remember well. EU then modified minor things and renamed it the Lisbon treaty, which has been ratified by parliamentary procedure. So even when people opinion is being asked, it's completely circumvented. It is very clear that EU has never been about building a democracy, those that believe that are very naive.
    - timrichard 8y ago
      > In 2005 the French people voted a resounding 'no' to the European consitution , so did the Dutch if I remember well. Along with this, The Irish were forced to vote a second time. Whether the same happens in Britain remains to be seen.
cs02rm0 8y ago
There are differences with the US model, which is obviously to be expected. A key one for me is that US president is elected by the people. The EU does not have that degree of democratic accountability. Some may think that a good thing. But without reforming aspects such as this, or at least offering to, I think it natural that the EU will continue to face questions over its democracy legitimacy when stories perceived to be unpopular arise.
- timrichard 8y ago
  At the Commission level (where legislation originates and the power really lies), the democratic link is so weak it's homeopathic democracy.
  - jnurmine 8y ago
    One of the problems is, to my understanding, that many people do not really understand how the EU Commission and Parliament relate to each other. As a result, they come up with theories about how things work with "undemocratic ways" and other such misunderstandings. In short, the Parliament is voted directly, the formation of the Commission is done with a kind of proxy (national goverments are in the loop). There is a control loop between the Parliament and the Commission; the Parliament has to OK the new Commission and if the Commission goes haywire, the Parliament can pull the plug. As for integration, now that Great Britain is finally removing itself from the EU, we can expect more tighter structures to emerge. One of these is the European army, which has been floating around on an idea level for a long time, only to be continuously torpedoed by Great Britain. With president Trump casting serious doubts over the future of NATO and the core premise of the entire defence alliance (the idea that everyone is in it together, i.e. attack against one is an attack against all), it is only logical that Europe formulates its own pan-European defence mechanisms. For the EU, as one of the supernational geopolitical power players, it also makes sense to tighten the co-operation on other areas, too. One of these is security. Probably one of these will be economical, and so on.
    - makomk 8y ago
      I'm not sure that understanding how the EU Commission and Parliament relate to each other will help convince people the EU is democractic. In particular, the president of the European Commission is currently chosen by some really weird ostensibly-democratic insider political trading: https://www.politico.eu/article/spitzenkandidat-jean-claude-juncker-race-with-no-rules-eu-leaders-brace-for-clash-over-2019-elections/ https://www.politico.eu/article/spitzenkandidat-jean-claude-...
LoSboccacc 8y ago
> The EU is on a roadmap for complete integration along the model of the USA. The USA federal government has exceptionally well defined limits. The EU can legislate on whatever the hell it wants. Quite the difference there.

calcifer 8y ago

> The EU is on a roadmap for complete integration along the model of the USA. That's news to me, especially since multiple EU sources have repeatedly denied this claim over the years. Could you provide a link to this roadmap of yours?

timrichard 8y ago
Not an official roadmap with regular press releases, but EU Officials (especially recently) are usually quite candid in media interviews about the direction the project is going in. You can see this for yourself in the expansion of power and reach since formation in 1993, and in every treaty since Maastricht. [1] https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/macron-urges-greater-european-integration-in-address-to-bundestag-1.3702249 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/macron-urges-gr... [2] https://www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-emmanuel-macron-eu-army-to-complement-nato/ https://www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-emmanuel-macro... [3] https://www.ft.com/content/18eb3400-989b-11e7-a652-cde3f882dd7b https://www.ft.com/content/18eb3400-989b-11e7-a652-cde3f882d...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
dageshi 8y ago
Has there ever been a time when the EU has devolved power back to the nations within it? I can't ever recall something like that happening. But every decade or so there's a new EU treaty that transfers more power to the EU, eventually you end up with something that looks like the EU as the country and the old nation states as the provinces, but it happens so slowly over time that nobody really stops and asks if that's what everyone wants.
- fmjrey 8y ago
  In France they did ask. In 1992 there was a referendum about Maastricht, where the 'yes' had a tiny lead over the 'no'. In 2005 the French people voted a resounding 'no' to the European consitution , so did the Dutch if I remember well. EU then modified minor things and renamed it the Lisbon treaty, which has been ratified by parliamentary procedure. So even when people opinion is being asked, it's completely circumvented. It is very clear that EU has never been about building a democracy, those that believe that are very naive.
  - timrichard 8y ago
    > In 2005 the French people voted a resounding 'no' to the European consitution , so did the Dutch if I remember well. Along with this, The Irish were forced to vote a second time. Whether the same happens in Britain remains to be seen.

cs02rm0 8y ago

There are differences with the US model, which is obviously to be expected. A key one for me is that US president is elected by the people. The EU does not have that degree of democratic accountability. Some may think that a good thing. But without reforming aspects such as this, or at least offering to, I think it natural that the EU will continue to face questions over its democracy legitimacy when stories perceived to be unpopular arise.

timrichard 8y ago
At the Commission level (where legislation originates and the power really lies), the democratic link is so weak it's homeopathic democracy.
- jnurmine 8y ago
  One of the problems is, to my understanding, that many people do not really understand how the EU Commission and Parliament relate to each other. As a result, they come up with theories about how things work with "undemocratic ways" and other such misunderstandings. In short, the Parliament is voted directly, the formation of the Commission is done with a kind of proxy (national goverments are in the loop). There is a control loop between the Parliament and the Commission; the Parliament has to OK the new Commission and if the Commission goes haywire, the Parliament can pull the plug. As for integration, now that Great Britain is finally removing itself from the EU, we can expect more tighter structures to emerge. One of these is the European army, which has been floating around on an idea level for a long time, only to be continuously torpedoed by Great Britain. With president Trump casting serious doubts over the future of NATO and the core premise of the entire defence alliance (the idea that everyone is in it together, i.e. attack against one is an attack against all), it is only logical that Europe formulates its own pan-European defence mechanisms. For the EU, as one of the supernational geopolitical power players, it also makes sense to tighten the co-operation on other areas, too. One of these is security. Probably one of these will be economical, and so on.
  - makomk 8y ago
    I'm not sure that understanding how the EU Commission and Parliament relate to each other will help convince people the EU is democractic. In particular, the president of the European Commission is currently chosen by some really weird ostensibly-democratic insider political trading: https://www.politico.eu/article/spitzenkandidat-jean-claude-juncker-race-with-no-rules-eu-leaders-brace-for-clash-over-2019-elections/ https://www.politico.eu/article/spitzenkandidat-jean-claude-...

LoSboccacc 8y ago

> The EU is on a roadmap for complete integration along the model of the USA. The USA federal government has exceptionally well defined limits. The EU can legislate on whatever the hell it wants. Quite the difference there.