4 ms·

EU slowly starts to resemble old monarchies, detached from reality, "solving" problems that does not exists and totally missing important issues like Euro curre

EU slowly starts to resemble old monarchies, detached from reality, "solving" problems that does not exists and totally missing important issues like Euro currency zone crisis, immigration crisis, lack of common and cohesive policy towards Russia and US, economic inequalities between old and new EU members, southern and northern EU countries. After Lisbon treaty EU became some kind of mixture of the union of independent countries and a single organism. "The force" that is supposed to bind all countries into a single organism are EU council, EU commission and EU parliament. The real power is in the hands of the first two institutions - that's the EU bureaucracy which became a modern days "monarchy" - people does not have any power to decide who is nominated to those bodies and those bodies can do whatever they want. EU parliament is pretending to be some kind of "democratic" control, but, at the end of the day, everyone votes "properly", if not, voting is repeated again and again, MPs are disciplined, some words are replaced with their smoother version and we get what we were supposed to get.

ginko 8y ago
Why are these articles always used for anti-EU tirades? Did people also call into question the democratic legitimacy of the United States while SOPA was on the table?
- dingaling 8y ago
  Perhaps because the European common market seemed to operate successfully for 40 years without such legislation? If the EU was purely about trade, like the EC&SC and EEC were, then we wouldn't be having this conversation or even Brexit. But such opportunities are useful to remind EU citizens that they are part of something much more daunting and profound.
- timrichard 8y ago
  The United States is pretty settled as a sovereign nation. The EU is on a roadmap for complete integration along the model of the USA. It's not unreasonable for people to stop and question whether this is what they want when they see that they have no power to oppose disagreeable, draconian laws like this one.
  - calcifer 8y ago
    > The EU is on a roadmap for complete integration along the model of the USA. That's news to me, especially since multiple EU sources have repeatedly denied this claim over the years. Could you provide a link to this roadmap of yours?
    - timrichard 8y ago
      Not an official roadmap with regular press releases, but EU Officials (especially recently) are usually quite candid in media interviews about the direction the project is going in. You can see this for yourself in the expansion of power and reach since formation in 1993, and in every treaty since Maastricht. [1] https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/macron-urges-greater-european-integration-in-address-to-bundestag-1.3702249 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/macron-urges-gr... [2] https://www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-emmanuel-macron-eu-army-to-complement-nato/ https://www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-emmanuel-macro... [3] https://www.ft.com/content/18eb3400-989b-11e7-a652-cde3f882dd7b https://www.ft.com/content/18eb3400-989b-11e7-a652-cde3f882d...
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - dageshi 8y ago
      Has there ever been a time when the EU has devolved power back to the nations within it? I can't ever recall something like that happening. But every decade or so there's a new EU treaty that transfers more power to the EU, eventually you end up with something that looks like the EU as the country and the old nation states as the provinces, but it happens so slowly over time that nobody really stops and asks if that's what everyone wants.
      - fmjrey 8y ago
        In France they did ask. In 1992 there was a referendum about Maastricht, where the 'yes' had a tiny lead over the 'no'. In 2005 the French people voted a resounding 'no' to the European consitution , so did the Dutch if I remember well. EU then modified minor things and renamed it the Lisbon treaty, which has been ratified by parliamentary procedure. So even when people opinion is being asked, it's completely circumvented. It is very clear that EU has never been about building a democracy, those that believe that are very naive.
- LoSboccacc 8y ago
  "why people getting punched write anti-bullying tirades?" because EU is overstepping a lot recently. that's why. the EU could be made to work, but the decision making actors need to be brought far far closer to the constituent than they are now. they basically rule with the detached impunity of who doesn't need consensus to rule, and that's not going to work nor in the short term with these kind of powerplay nor in the long term with the stability of they whole eurozone.
- kodablah 8y ago
  > Did people also call into question the democratic legitimacy of the United States while SOPA was on the table? When they overstep, absolutely. All the time, constantly referencing a much more ingrained charter too. For the US the march to federalism was slower than for the EU, but the centralized large government's legitimacy of handling several matters is often called into question. What I see more often is a deflection of real political concerns about a growing centralized government. (well, that while often the cheering on of increasing its size/reach)
AnaniasAnanas 8y ago
> monarchy I think you mean oligarchy. > parliament is pretending to be some kind of "democratic" control, but, at the end of the day, everyone votes "properly", if not, voting is repeated again and again Isn't this true for most countries anyway? The gov ministers are the ones who tend to create articles to be voted, while the MPs only vote on them.
- mcv 8y ago
  I'd like to see that reversed: let parliament make the laws (that's what it's supposed to do, isn't it?) while government merely executes it. Power has become too centralised in the hands of the executive branches.
- makomk 8y ago
  Most democratic countries allow ordinary elected representatives to propose laws, I think. It's mostly a question of whether they can get enough votes, which is easier if the current government supports them. The fact that the EU-level elected representatives have no power to make new laws whatsoever is quite unusual.
watwut 8y ago
Which non-existent problems monarchies were trying to solve?
dang 8y ago
Please don't take HN threads on generic ideological or political or national tangents. They're off topic here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

ginko 8y ago

Why are these articles always used for anti-EU tirades? Did people also call into question the democratic legitimacy of the United States while SOPA was on the table?

dingaling 8y ago
Perhaps because the European common market seemed to operate successfully for 40 years without such legislation? If the EU was purely about trade, like the EC&SC and EEC were, then we wouldn't be having this conversation or even Brexit. But such opportunities are useful to remind EU citizens that they are part of something much more daunting and profound.
timrichard 8y ago
The United States is pretty settled as a sovereign nation. The EU is on a roadmap for complete integration along the model of the USA. It's not unreasonable for people to stop and question whether this is what they want when they see that they have no power to oppose disagreeable, draconian laws like this one.
- calcifer 8y ago
  > The EU is on a roadmap for complete integration along the model of the USA. That's news to me, especially since multiple EU sources have repeatedly denied this claim over the years. Could you provide a link to this roadmap of yours?
  - timrichard 8y ago
    Not an official roadmap with regular press releases, but EU Officials (especially recently) are usually quite candid in media interviews about the direction the project is going in. You can see this for yourself in the expansion of power and reach since formation in 1993, and in every treaty since Maastricht. [1] https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/macron-urges-greater-european-integration-in-address-to-bundestag-1.3702249 https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/macron-urges-gr... [2] https://www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-emmanuel-macron-eu-army-to-complement-nato/ https://www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-emmanuel-macro... [3] https://www.ft.com/content/18eb3400-989b-11e7-a652-cde3f882dd7b https://www.ft.com/content/18eb3400-989b-11e7-a652-cde3f882d...
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - dageshi 8y ago
    Has there ever been a time when the EU has devolved power back to the nations within it? I can't ever recall something like that happening. But every decade or so there's a new EU treaty that transfers more power to the EU, eventually you end up with something that looks like the EU as the country and the old nation states as the provinces, but it happens so slowly over time that nobody really stops and asks if that's what everyone wants.
    - fmjrey 8y ago
      In France they did ask. In 1992 there was a referendum about Maastricht, where the 'yes' had a tiny lead over the 'no'. In 2005 the French people voted a resounding 'no' to the European consitution , so did the Dutch if I remember well. EU then modified minor things and renamed it the Lisbon treaty, which has been ratified by parliamentary procedure. So even when people opinion is being asked, it's completely circumvented. It is very clear that EU has never been about building a democracy, those that believe that are very naive.
LoSboccacc 8y ago
"why people getting punched write anti-bullying tirades?" because EU is overstepping a lot recently. that's why. the EU could be made to work, but the decision making actors need to be brought far far closer to the constituent than they are now. they basically rule with the detached impunity of who doesn't need consensus to rule, and that's not going to work nor in the short term with these kind of powerplay nor in the long term with the stability of they whole eurozone.
kodablah 8y ago
> Did people also call into question the democratic legitimacy of the United States while SOPA was on the table? When they overstep, absolutely. All the time, constantly referencing a much more ingrained charter too. For the US the march to federalism was slower than for the EU, but the centralized large government's legitimacy of handling several matters is often called into question. What I see more often is a deflection of real political concerns about a growing centralized government. (well, that while often the cheering on of increasing its size/reach)

AnaniasAnanas 8y ago

> monarchy I think you mean oligarchy. > parliament is pretending to be some kind of "democratic" control, but, at the end of the day, everyone votes "properly", if not, voting is repeated again and again Isn't this true for most countries anyway? The gov ministers are the ones who tend to create articles to be voted, while the MPs only vote on them.

mcv 8y ago
I'd like to see that reversed: let parliament make the laws (that's what it's supposed to do, isn't it?) while government merely executes it. Power has become too centralised in the hands of the executive branches.
makomk 8y ago
Most democratic countries allow ordinary elected representatives to propose laws, I think. It's mostly a question of whether they can get enough votes, which is easier if the current government supports them. The fact that the EU-level elected representatives have no power to make new laws whatsoever is quite unusual.

watwut 8y ago

Which non-existent problems monarchies were trying to solve?

dang 8y ago

Please don't take HN threads on generic ideological or political or national tangents. They're off topic here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html