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> A frozen battery will barely regenerate at all, at 0°F it’s actually disconcerting when you lift your foot and the car just... coasts. The display does have a

by piker 8y ago

> A frozen battery will barely regenerate at all, at 0°F it’s actually disconcerting when you lift your foot and the car just... coasts. The display does have a gauge showing how much regen is available, so it’s not a surprise but it literally feels weird. Nondeterministic regenerative braking as described here seems like a serious bug in a vehicle.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago
>Nondeterministic regenerative braking as described here seems like a serious bug in a vehicle. When you're buying a high end vehicle "quirky" is the preferred adjective. 20yo $1500 German cars are "unreliable". Chinese EVs are "buggy". When you buy a Tesla, a new high end Mercedes or some other status symbol it's all just part of how it goes. Unreliability or odd behavior is not a negative at that price point. It's all part of the ownership experience. You don't get to complain about it. It's implied by the price point that you knew what you were getting into and can handle it.
- dharmab 8y ago
  I think warranty support and dealer network plays a role in that.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    Warranty coverage is not that great and dealers are few and far between once you get into exotic stuff. The German stuff available at the Model S price points is not much better (in terms of warranty). The line between exotic and not gets kind of blurry because a lot of the lower end exotic stuff shares a platform with something else so most service can be done at that dealer network. In any case, price determines whether technology is given the benefit of the doubt when it fails. Someone breaks a Harbor Freight tool and everyone blames the tool. Someone breaks a Mac or a Snap On and everyone blames whoever broke it. When Walmart has to recall food it's Walmart's fault for not choosing better suppliers. When Whole Foods has to trash a bunch of lettuce people blame the lettuce makers. When cheap things break, act weird or somehow go wrong they get blamed. When expensive things break or act funny that's how they were meant to be and if you don't like it you were using it wrong or your expectations were wrong. People will do all sorts of mental gymnastics to avoid making expensive things look bad.
- short_sells_poo 8y ago
  In my experience, what you are talking about applies to exotics, not a run of the mill sedan. I absolutely want my Merc or Bmw (they are the same class really) to run without a hitch. They should be exciting to drive, but not quirky. I appreciate the engineering behind a Tesla or a Mercedes, but I have no passion for it, so quirkiness will get on my nerves. A Ferrari might be quirky, a Pagani Huayra might have an endearing decel pop that's unique to it. I have passion and admiration for these exotic cars, so quirks become distinguishing features. A sedan has to get me comfortably from A to B.
  - TomMarius 8y ago
    Or maybe there is a room on the market for a new, non-quirky upper class vehicle.
doctorpangloss 8y ago
Pretty much the entire Tesla experience is a bunch of weird idiosyncracies. Not necessarily all of it is bad, even in some academic UX sense or whatever. But there's definitely a strong correspondence between idiosyncratic experiences, personalities that find such experiences appealing, and personalities that actually buy expensive luxury goods. Most armchair QBs miss that last part. Someone like you, who would scoff at this weird behaviour, will never buy a Tesla. So why do they care what you think? Some people, the people who actually buy Teslas, talk enthusiastically about the weird behaviours on the Internet, i.e. the most priceless form of viral marketing. I'm not saying you're right or wrong. That's beside the point. I'm saying you could be right, but you don't really have a solution for, "Idiosyncratic stuff is what payers talk about."
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > But there's definitely a strong correspondence between idiosyncratic experiences, personalities that find such experiences appealing, and personalities that actually buy expensive luxury good. Most armchair QBs miss that last part. Tesla has always sold itself as having a rapid plan to move from niche expensive luxury good to broad mass market everyman vehicle. Some Tesla cheerleaders seem to miss that point.
  - AnthonyMouse 8y ago
    The key to the mass market is to get the ownership cost down below what it is for gasoline cars. Make something which is cost competitive on total cost of ownership but still gives people social status for fighting climate change while going 0-60 in under five seconds and many people will forgive a certain number of idiosyncrasies. Which may produce enough customers and revenue to make the next refresh less exotic.
    - atthestarbcks 8y ago
      Since when did 0-60 numbers matter so much? I bet most Tesla owners don't even know then acceleration numbers for their previous cars. Tesla puts it front and centre (being an advantage over some ICE), and now we hear it in every conversation. Tesla advertised it for their transport truck for crying out loud. Hate to break it to people, but 0-60 times aren't really relevant day to day, and a sub 5 second time in a $50k+ luxury car is not exceptional (the ~3 second times of the bigger models are another story).
cptskippy 8y ago
> Nondeterministic regenerative braking as described here seems like a serious bug in a vehicle I wouldn't call it nondeterministic, there's a notification window alerting you to the limited reg and there's a "gauge" below the "speedometer" that shows power input/output. That being said, it's bad UX/UI and they could do a better job representing it. The power gauge is a hair thin line with no labels or scale that you must intuit the purpose of by observation. The Gen1 Leaf isn't really better, it's just different. Theere's again a power gauge that shows power input/output. You can clearly see the scale of the gauge which is better but again you must observe it to understand it's purpose. The Leaf also has rings around each tic in the gauge that denotes if that level is accessible. When the batter approaches 100% charge or it's terribly cold you lose rings on the input side of the gauge and when the battery is exceptionally low you lose them from the output side. Again it's nice if you know what it means but the only way to know is through observation of the gauge. I'm guessing other EVs aren't any better. We're probably going through a phase much like early automobiles where each manufacturer comes up with novel UIs to complete the feedback loop between car and driver. Eventually they'll all standardize on something universally understood.
- sokoloff 8y ago
  > Again it's nice if you know what it means but the only way to know is through observation of the gauge. Or you could read the LEAF's fine owner's manual. Search for "Power Meter" and it's described perfectly clearly.
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    > Or you could read the LEAF's fine owner's manual. Search for "Power Meter" and it's described perfectly clearly. That doesn't dismiss the fact that the Power Meter is poor UI/UX. In most other cars the instrument cluster has clear labels and/or iconography that's identifiable. Even in the Leaf there are signs of thoughtful design, Nissan adapted the standard Fuel Gauge Icon with a Power Plug pigtail to indicate the Battery Level Gauge, though bizarrely it also includes an incorrect port indicator, and they put a battery capacity gauge right alongside the battery level gauge to clearly differentiate the two AND show that they're related. The Power Meter is fusion of two gauges (i.e. power input/output and available input/output) and there should have been a clearer delineation instead. It's easy enough to infer that the Power Meter is analogous to a Tachometer after observing it for a few minutes but it takes longer to understand the regenerative braking aspect. The disappearing rings based on Temp/Capacity of the Battery are a much harder thing to understand.

by piker 8y ago

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

>Nondeterministic regenerative braking as described here seems like a serious bug in a vehicle. When you're buying a high end vehicle "quirky" is the preferred adjective. 20yo $1500 German cars are "unreliable". Chinese EVs are "buggy". When you buy a Tesla, a new high end Mercedes or some other status symbol it's all just part of how it goes. Unreliability or odd behavior is not a negative at that price point. It's all part of the ownership experience. You don't get to complain about it. It's implied by the price point that you knew what you were getting into and can handle it.

dharmab 8y ago
I think warranty support and dealer network plays a role in that.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  Warranty coverage is not that great and dealers are few and far between once you get into exotic stuff. The German stuff available at the Model S price points is not much better (in terms of warranty). The line between exotic and not gets kind of blurry because a lot of the lower end exotic stuff shares a platform with something else so most service can be done at that dealer network. In any case, price determines whether technology is given the benefit of the doubt when it fails. Someone breaks a Harbor Freight tool and everyone blames the tool. Someone breaks a Mac or a Snap On and everyone blames whoever broke it. When Walmart has to recall food it's Walmart's fault for not choosing better suppliers. When Whole Foods has to trash a bunch of lettuce people blame the lettuce makers. When cheap things break, act weird or somehow go wrong they get blamed. When expensive things break or act funny that's how they were meant to be and if you don't like it you were using it wrong or your expectations were wrong. People will do all sorts of mental gymnastics to avoid making expensive things look bad.
short_sells_poo 8y ago
In my experience, what you are talking about applies to exotics, not a run of the mill sedan. I absolutely want my Merc or Bmw (they are the same class really) to run without a hitch. They should be exciting to drive, but not quirky. I appreciate the engineering behind a Tesla or a Mercedes, but I have no passion for it, so quirkiness will get on my nerves. A Ferrari might be quirky, a Pagani Huayra might have an endearing decel pop that's unique to it. I have passion and admiration for these exotic cars, so quirks become distinguishing features. A sedan has to get me comfortably from A to B.
- TomMarius 8y ago
  Or maybe there is a room on the market for a new, non-quirky upper class vehicle.

doctorpangloss 8y ago

Pretty much the entire Tesla experience is a bunch of weird idiosyncracies. Not necessarily all of it is bad, even in some academic UX sense or whatever. But there's definitely a strong correspondence between idiosyncratic experiences, personalities that find such experiences appealing, and personalities that actually buy expensive luxury goods. Most armchair QBs miss that last part. Someone like you, who would scoff at this weird behaviour, will never buy a Tesla. So why do they care what you think? Some people, the people who actually buy Teslas, talk enthusiastically about the weird behaviours on the Internet, i.e. the most priceless form of viral marketing. I'm not saying you're right or wrong. That's beside the point. I'm saying you could be right, but you don't really have a solution for, "Idiosyncratic stuff is what payers talk about."

dragonwriter 8y ago
> But there's definitely a strong correspondence between idiosyncratic experiences, personalities that find such experiences appealing, and personalities that actually buy expensive luxury good. Most armchair QBs miss that last part. Tesla has always sold itself as having a rapid plan to move from niche expensive luxury good to broad mass market everyman vehicle. Some Tesla cheerleaders seem to miss that point.
- AnthonyMouse 8y ago
  The key to the mass market is to get the ownership cost down below what it is for gasoline cars. Make something which is cost competitive on total cost of ownership but still gives people social status for fighting climate change while going 0-60 in under five seconds and many people will forgive a certain number of idiosyncrasies. Which may produce enough customers and revenue to make the next refresh less exotic.
  - atthestarbcks 8y ago
    Since when did 0-60 numbers matter so much? I bet most Tesla owners don't even know then acceleration numbers for their previous cars. Tesla puts it front and centre (being an advantage over some ICE), and now we hear it in every conversation. Tesla advertised it for their transport truck for crying out loud. Hate to break it to people, but 0-60 times aren't really relevant day to day, and a sub 5 second time in a $50k+ luxury car is not exceptional (the ~3 second times of the bigger models are another story).

cptskippy 8y ago

> Nondeterministic regenerative braking as described here seems like a serious bug in a vehicle I wouldn't call it nondeterministic, there's a notification window alerting you to the limited reg and there's a "gauge" below the "speedometer" that shows power input/output. That being said, it's bad UX/UI and they could do a better job representing it. The power gauge is a hair thin line with no labels or scale that you must intuit the purpose of by observation. The Gen1 Leaf isn't really better, it's just different. Theere's again a power gauge that shows power input/output. You can clearly see the scale of the gauge which is better but again you must observe it to understand it's purpose. The Leaf also has rings around each tic in the gauge that denotes if that level is accessible. When the batter approaches 100% charge or it's terribly cold you lose rings on the input side of the gauge and when the battery is exceptionally low you lose them from the output side. Again it's nice if you know what it means but the only way to know is through observation of the gauge. I'm guessing other EVs aren't any better. We're probably going through a phase much like early automobiles where each manufacturer comes up with novel UIs to complete the feedback loop between car and driver. Eventually they'll all standardize on something universally understood.

sokoloff 8y ago
> Again it's nice if you know what it means but the only way to know is through observation of the gauge. Or you could read the LEAF's fine owner's manual. Search for "Power Meter" and it's described perfectly clearly.
- cptskippy 8y ago
  > Or you could read the LEAF's fine owner's manual. Search for "Power Meter" and it's described perfectly clearly. That doesn't dismiss the fact that the Power Meter is poor UI/UX. In most other cars the instrument cluster has clear labels and/or iconography that's identifiable. Even in the Leaf there are signs of thoughtful design, Nissan adapted the standard Fuel Gauge Icon with a Power Plug pigtail to indicate the Battery Level Gauge, though bizarrely it also includes an incorrect port indicator, and they put a battery capacity gauge right alongside the battery level gauge to clearly differentiate the two AND show that they're related. The Power Meter is fusion of two gauges (i.e. power input/output and available input/output) and there should have been a clearer delineation instead. It's easy enough to infer that the Power Meter is analogous to a Tachometer after observing it for a few minutes but it takes longer to understand the regenerative braking aspect. The disappearing rings based on Temp/Capacity of the Battery are a much harder thing to understand.