4 ms·

well, they're as dangerous if you use carfentanyl. if you just use tear gas or something...

maxxxxx 8y ago
Tear gas is pretty unpleasant and also the impact is very uneven. We did an exercise at military with a very low dose and there were people who were in serious trouble while others barely noticed. I think it’s more of a movie phantasy.
- module0000 8y ago
  In the US(Army) we all have to do a gas exercise. We go into a chamber with our gas masks on and watch the agent being activated and released. Then we remove our masks, recite our name, rank, and serial number, then put them back on. It doesn't last long, but no one in my platoon "barely noticed". It was pretty debilitating - vomiting, coughing, snot smeared all over your face...etc. That said, there are a lot of different gas varieties, and I've only been exposed to that one.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    We did that exercise too. But we also did one outside which is more realistic. There the distribution was very uneven. I don’t think think you can find a dosage that makes sure the bad guys are incapacitated while not killing others. As far as I know this is also a factor why chemical weapons weren’t used in WW2. They are way too hard to control to be useful.
  - hnbroseph 8y ago
    when i went through the chamber it got me a bit, but for me it wasn't especially debilitating... at least in comparison to some.
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    During the Moscow theater attack, there were 40-50 assailants holding at least 850 people hostage using, among other weapons, explosives. Vomiting from tear gas can't be relied on to stop assailants resigned to suicide from detonating explosives to kill hostages. It was pretty damn shitty that the Russian government did little to assist doctors treating hostages in the aftermath, but aside from that their gas plan worked pretty damn well, considering the circumstance they were up against. The only other realistic option was for the Russian government to give in to the demands, as they did years before during the lesser known but larger Budyonnovsk hospital attack after conventional attacks failed (over the course of which something like 150 hostages were killed and hundreds more injured.)
  - justtopost 8y ago
    I have done these a few times and there is usually one or 2 that seem to shrug it off as mildly irritating, as the rest of us choked and teared. Seems to happen more with CS based stuff than 'Teargas'. Also, the new generation pepper spray is a legitimate torture device and I question its use, ethics and legality. I would rather be waterboarded again.
blattimwind 8y ago
From the reports I've read the Dubrowka theater hostage taking was kind of an impossible situation.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
>if you just use tear gas or something... The FBI tried that once upon a time in Texas. Most formulations of tear "gas" are actually a powder that happens to be flammable powder. It makes nasty poisonous things when it burns (burning already poisonous things has a tendency of doing that). It didn't go well.[1] It's generally not prudent to use tear gas if you're not ok with substantially increasing the likelihood of many people in the target area dying. What's acceptable when you're trying to gas some enemy combatants out of a tunnel in a war zone is not necessarily acceptable for a civilian law enforcement agency to do domestically. (possibly NSFW) https://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f240/149052d1270518862-waco-autopsy-photographs-february-1993-untitled-1.jpg https://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f240/14...
- darkpuma 8y ago
  Except for drills and riot control, it's illegal for militaries to use tear gas.

Tear gas is pretty unpleasant and also the impact is very uneven. We did an exercise at military with a very low dose and there were people who were in serious trouble while others barely noticed. I think it’s more of a movie phantasy.

module0000 8y ago
In the US(Army) we all have to do a gas exercise. We go into a chamber with our gas masks on and watch the agent being activated and released. Then we remove our masks, recite our name, rank, and serial number, then put them back on. It doesn't last long, but no one in my platoon "barely noticed". It was pretty debilitating - vomiting, coughing, snot smeared all over your face...etc. That said, there are a lot of different gas varieties, and I've only been exposed to that one.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  We did that exercise too. But we also did one outside which is more realistic. There the distribution was very uneven. I don’t think think you can find a dosage that makes sure the bad guys are incapacitated while not killing others. As far as I know this is also a factor why chemical weapons weren’t used in WW2. They are way too hard to control to be useful.
- hnbroseph 8y ago
  when i went through the chamber it got me a bit, but for me it wasn't especially debilitating... at least in comparison to some.
- darkpuma 8y ago
  During the Moscow theater attack, there were 40-50 assailants holding at least 850 people hostage using, among other weapons, explosives. Vomiting from tear gas can't be relied on to stop assailants resigned to suicide from detonating explosives to kill hostages. It was pretty damn shitty that the Russian government did little to assist doctors treating hostages in the aftermath, but aside from that their gas plan worked pretty damn well, considering the circumstance they were up against. The only other realistic option was for the Russian government to give in to the demands, as they did years before during the lesser known but larger Budyonnovsk hospital attack after conventional attacks failed (over the course of which something like 150 hostages were killed and hundreds more injured.)
- justtopost 8y ago
  I have done these a few times and there is usually one or 2 that seem to shrug it off as mildly irritating, as the rest of us choked and teared. Seems to happen more with CS based stuff than 'Teargas'. Also, the new generation pepper spray is a legitimate torture device and I question its use, ethics and legality. I would rather be waterboarded again.

blattimwind 8y ago

From the reports I've read the Dubrowka theater hostage taking was kind of an impossible situation.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

>if you just use tear gas or something... The FBI tried that once upon a time in Texas. Most formulations of tear "gas" are actually a powder that happens to be flammable powder. It makes nasty poisonous things when it burns (burning already poisonous things has a tendency of doing that). It didn't go well.[1] It's generally not prudent to use tear gas if you're not ok with substantially increasing the likelihood of many people in the target area dying. What's acceptable when you're trying to gas some enemy combatants out of a tunnel in a war zone is not necessarily acceptable for a civilian law enforcement agency to do domestically. (possibly NSFW) https://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f240/149052d1270518862-waco-autopsy-photographs-february-1993-untitled-1.jpg https://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f240/14...

darkpuma 8y ago
Except for drills and riot control, it's illegal for militaries to use tear gas.