4 ms·

Arguably, humanity is in the process of doing just that? Mind you, I didn't claim that you can de-indoctrinate all humans on the planet today. Chances are that

Arguably, humanity is in the process of doing just that? Mind you, I didn't claim that you can de-indoctrinate all humans on the planet today. Chances are that some people are beyond that. But that's not even all that special for faith or indoctrination, some people just have extreme problems with rationally controlling their behaviour in some regards, and be it that they have OCD or some eating disorder. But just because some people have eating disorders that they have trouble overcoming, we don't say that "eating disorders are required for human communities". So, let's ignore that some minority might always exhibit some sort of religious behaviour. Then you will notice that religiosity is shrinking massively, despite being almost universal not so long ago, both due to people overcoming their religion and due to children not being indoctrinated and thus never getting the idea in the first place. That suggests that it's not all that hard-wired, doesn't it? Now, will there be a barrier where religion will stop shrinking? Who knows, but I don't see any reason why it unavoidably should.

mikekchar 8y ago
Possibly it is. I'll be honest, if so then I'll be the first one celebrating. I'm not religious, but my wife is very religious. I suppose it is not surprising, both her father and younger brother were priests. It's taken me quite a long time to learn to appreciate what she gets from religion. I'll tell you, without pretense, that it has been challenging for me. However, at least for me (and you may very well find it different) I came to a realisation that I was being unreasonably biased against my wife's religion. In fact I had my own religion: science -- which I believed in quite strongly. I'm not talking about accepting models because they are useful. I generally believed these models to be true. Eventually I started to question why I believed the models to be true. Consistent things are often not as they appear. Why do I believe this consistent thing to be true. At least for me, I decided it's just another religion. And strangely, that allowed me to abandon it. I now believe in a very strange religion in which the universe appears to me to probably be very different, although consistent with our scientific models. Possibly I'm the only one in that religion and I have no problem with that. I think the point I'm trying to make is that, especially those of us who have a hard time with religion fall just as easily into our own religions. That's an embarrassing and difficult thing to look at. I literally moved from my native Canada to Japan, partly because I was frustrated with the implied Christianity of Canadian society -- almost as if it's a matter of common sense that you will be Christian if you aren't already spoken for by a different religion. I really enjoyed the fact that Christmas in Japan meant going out with your girlfriend to Kentucky Fried Chicken (seriously, you have to book 3 months in advance!) This is a pretty personal thing to post on a public forum, but I think it should be fine to say these kinds of things (or at least I wish to live in a world where it is), so hopefully nobody will take offense. But, (again my personal opinion, which I hope you will take as just an old guy being friendly) my wife really enjoys her religion. It brings many good things for her and, to be completely honest, while her religion has doctrine (which, incidentally, not all religions have) I haven't actually met anybody in her church that demands that doctrine. I was going to say that I have not met a single person who really had any interest in exploring the world beyond their doctrine in a church, but this is actually not true. One of my wife's friends is a priest who got a double major in astronomy and computer science (and had a pile of scholarships and studied in a whole bunch of famous universities). Then he became a priest. I asked him why, with the education he had that he decided to become a priest. He just said that he enjoyed being a priest. He believes in his religion and has no way to reconcile his education and his beliefs, but he is completely OK with that. I really miss him to be honest. He got posted to Malaysia (being a priest is a super hard job). He's one of the few people I've met in a church who ever accepted me for who I am and what I believe. He frequently stood up for me and explained to other people that not everybody believes what they believe. I was very grateful for that. These days, even though I don't believe what other people believe, I feel it is important to respect that belief. In human life there are a lot of contradictions. There are many things that don't match up (like my wife's friend, the priest). However, we all have biases and we all have points beyond which we regretfully don't look. We look past our own bigotry and somehow think that only our view must be right. Ironically, we tend to all be united in our discrimination. It's just my idea and it may be horribly flawed, but I think we need to first accept other people as they are before we invite them into our own field of vision. Sometimes that's hard to do. Anyway, again, I apologise if this meets you at a time when you aren't really in the mood to read it. I hope you take it in the spirit in which it is offered -- just an old guy rambling on about stuff that probably doesn't matter ;-) Even if I don't agree with you, I've really enjoyed thinking about what you have had to say. Thank you!
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
  > In fact I had my own religion: science -- which I believed in quite strongly. I'm not talking about accepting models because they are useful. I generally believed these models to be true. In other words: The problem was your religion of sorts, which was rather obviously not science (because of lack of falsifiability), and not science? > I think the point I'm trying to make is that, especially those of us who have a hard time with religion fall just as easily into our own religions. That's an embarrassing and difficult thing to look at. Well ... all the more reason to consider religion a problem per se, then? I mean, not acknowledging that it is a problem won't help with avoiding it, will it? > But, (again my personal opinion, which I hope you will take as just an old guy being friendly) my wife really enjoys her religion. Well, and some drug addicts really enjoy their drugs ... your point being? I mean, yes, there is essentially nothing where you can't find some subjective positive aspect to it for someone, but that's hardly much of an argument in favor of the thing?! > It brings many good things for her But does it? Or is that merely religion taking credit? Like, would she be any worse off if you took her life and removed only precisely the religious aspects? Mind you, that does not mean removing church from her life, for example, as in the social organization, but only those aspects that involve faith/doctrine/supernatural claims. Just because the institution that she belongs to happens to have religion as a declared goal, doesn't mean the religion aspect of it actually provides her any benefit. > and, to be completely honest, while her religion has doctrine (which, incidentally, not all religions have) I haven't actually met anybody in her church that demands that doctrine. Well, or do they? How would they react if she started questioning things in her church? Would they willingly engage, give her a podium? Also, do they still indoctrinate children? Will they stand with her when she protests indoctrination? Doesn't the faith aspect of her religion impair her epistemology and that of the other people in her church? Bad ideas are still bad ideas when they are used in small doses. > He believes in his religion and has no way to reconcile his education and his beliefs, but he is completely OK with that. Which is just obvious nonsense? I mean, how aren't you saying that he is simultaneously accepting as true multiple propositions that contradict each other, which would be an obvious impossibility? > I really miss him to be honest. He got posted to Malaysia (being a priest is a super hard job). He's one of the few people I've met in a church who ever accepted me for who I am and what I believe. He frequently stood up for me and explained to other people that not everybody believes what they believe. I was very grateful for that. Well, that's great--but the problem that he is helping you with there wouldn't exist in the first place if there weren't people like him teaching all those falsehoods that create the division in the first place, so I am not sure I can see more than a net zero contribution to your well-being in this? First teaching people that there are (completely fabricated) reasons to reject people like you, and then standing up for you when those people act on what he taught them is not exactly a contribution to society. > These days, even though I don't believe what other people believe, I feel it is important to respect that belief. Why? I understand it that you are not talking about respecting the person, but about respecting the belief, right? How could that possibly be a good idea? And how do you decide where that applies? I believe that white people are inferior to black people. Do you respect that? If not, why not? To the contrary, I think that respect for the person trumps respect for a belief. If someone is a member of scientology and they believe that Xenu fought the aliens (or whatever their theology was, I don't remember), how would respecting that belief rather than challenging it be anything but a sign of lack of respect for the person that is stuck in that belief system? They don't have the means to defend themselves against the abuse, and you leave them to their fate out of respect?! > It's just my idea and it may be horribly flawed, but I think we need to first accept other people as they are before we invite them into our own field of vision. Sometimes that's hard to do. Well, maybe? But then that's respect for the person, not for the belief, isn't it?

mikekchar 8y ago

Possibly it is. I'll be honest, if so then I'll be the first one celebrating. I'm not religious, but my wife is very religious. I suppose it is not surprising, both her father and younger brother were priests. It's taken me quite a long time to learn to appreciate what she gets from religion. I'll tell you, without pretense, that it has been challenging for me. However, at least for me (and you may very well find it different) I came to a realisation that I was being unreasonably biased against my wife's religion. In fact I had my own religion: science -- which I believed in quite strongly. I'm not talking about accepting models because they are useful. I generally believed these models to be true. Eventually I started to question why I believed the models to be true. Consistent things are often not as they appear. Why do I believe this consistent thing to be true. At least for me, I decided it's just another religion. And strangely, that allowed me to abandon it. I now believe in a very strange religion in which the universe appears to me to probably be very different, although consistent with our scientific models. Possibly I'm the only one in that religion and I have no problem with that. I think the point I'm trying to make is that, especially those of us who have a hard time with religion fall just as easily into our own religions. That's an embarrassing and difficult thing to look at. I literally moved from my native Canada to Japan, partly because I was frustrated with the implied Christianity of Canadian society -- almost as if it's a matter of common sense that you will be Christian if you aren't already spoken for by a different religion. I really enjoyed the fact that Christmas in Japan meant going out with your girlfriend to Kentucky Fried Chicken (seriously, you have to book 3 months in advance!) This is a pretty personal thing to post on a public forum, but I think it should be fine to say these kinds of things (or at least I wish to live in a world where it is), so hopefully nobody will take offense. But, (again my personal opinion, which I hope you will take as just an old guy being friendly) my wife really enjoys her religion. It brings many good things for her and, to be completely honest, while her religion has doctrine (which, incidentally, not all religions have) I haven't actually met anybody in her church that demands that doctrine. I was going to say that I have not met a single person who really had any interest in exploring the world beyond their doctrine in a church, but this is actually not true. One of my wife's friends is a priest who got a double major in astronomy and computer science (and had a pile of scholarships and studied in a whole bunch of famous universities). Then he became a priest. I asked him why, with the education he had that he decided to become a priest. He just said that he enjoyed being a priest. He believes in his religion and has no way to reconcile his education and his beliefs, but he is completely OK with that. I really miss him to be honest. He got posted to Malaysia (being a priest is a super hard job). He's one of the few people I've met in a church who ever accepted me for who I am and what I believe. He frequently stood up for me and explained to other people that not everybody believes what they believe. I was very grateful for that. These days, even though I don't believe what other people believe, I feel it is important to respect that belief. In human life there are a lot of contradictions. There are many things that don't match up (like my wife's friend, the priest). However, we all have biases and we all have points beyond which we regretfully don't look. We look past our own bigotry and somehow think that only our view must be right. Ironically, we tend to all be united in our discrimination. It's just my idea and it may be horribly flawed, but I think we need to first accept other people as they are before we invite them into our own field of vision. Sometimes that's hard to do. Anyway, again, I apologise if this meets you at a time when you aren't really in the mood to read it. I hope you take it in the spirit in which it is offered -- just an old guy rambling on about stuff that probably doesn't matter ;-) Even if I don't agree with you, I've really enjoyed thinking about what you have had to say. Thank you!

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
> In fact I had my own religion: science -- which I believed in quite strongly. I'm not talking about accepting models because they are useful. I generally believed these models to be true. In other words: The problem was your religion of sorts, which was rather obviously not science (because of lack of falsifiability), and not science? > I think the point I'm trying to make is that, especially those of us who have a hard time with religion fall just as easily into our own religions. That's an embarrassing and difficult thing to look at. Well ... all the more reason to consider religion a problem per se, then? I mean, not acknowledging that it is a problem won't help with avoiding it, will it? > But, (again my personal opinion, which I hope you will take as just an old guy being friendly) my wife really enjoys her religion. Well, and some drug addicts really enjoy their drugs ... your point being? I mean, yes, there is essentially nothing where you can't find some subjective positive aspect to it for someone, but that's hardly much of an argument in favor of the thing?! > It brings many good things for her But does it? Or is that merely religion taking credit? Like, would she be any worse off if you took her life and removed only precisely the religious aspects? Mind you, that does not mean removing church from her life, for example, as in the social organization, but only those aspects that involve faith/doctrine/supernatural claims. Just because the institution that she belongs to happens to have religion as a declared goal, doesn't mean the religion aspect of it actually provides her any benefit. > and, to be completely honest, while her religion has doctrine (which, incidentally, not all religions have) I haven't actually met anybody in her church that demands that doctrine. Well, or do they? How would they react if she started questioning things in her church? Would they willingly engage, give her a podium? Also, do they still indoctrinate children? Will they stand with her when she protests indoctrination? Doesn't the faith aspect of her religion impair her epistemology and that of the other people in her church? Bad ideas are still bad ideas when they are used in small doses. > He believes in his religion and has no way to reconcile his education and his beliefs, but he is completely OK with that. Which is just obvious nonsense? I mean, how aren't you saying that he is simultaneously accepting as true multiple propositions that contradict each other, which would be an obvious impossibility? > I really miss him to be honest. He got posted to Malaysia (being a priest is a super hard job). He's one of the few people I've met in a church who ever accepted me for who I am and what I believe. He frequently stood up for me and explained to other people that not everybody believes what they believe. I was very grateful for that. Well, that's great--but the problem that he is helping you with there wouldn't exist in the first place if there weren't people like him teaching all those falsehoods that create the division in the first place, so I am not sure I can see more than a net zero contribution to your well-being in this? First teaching people that there are (completely fabricated) reasons to reject people like you, and then standing up for you when those people act on what he taught them is not exactly a contribution to society. > These days, even though I don't believe what other people believe, I feel it is important to respect that belief. Why? I understand it that you are not talking about respecting the person, but about respecting the belief, right? How could that possibly be a good idea? And how do you decide where that applies? I believe that white people are inferior to black people. Do you respect that? If not, why not? To the contrary, I think that respect for the person trumps respect for a belief. If someone is a member of scientology and they believe that Xenu fought the aliens (or whatever their theology was, I don't remember), how would respecting that belief rather than challenging it be anything but a sign of lack of respect for the person that is stuck in that belief system? They don't have the means to defend themselves against the abuse, and you leave them to their fate out of respect?! > It's just my idea and it may be horribly flawed, but I think we need to first accept other people as they are before we invite them into our own field of vision. Sometimes that's hard to do. Well, maybe? But then that's respect for the person, not for the belief, isn't it?