4 ms·

Only if you squint really hard. It's about as undemocratic as an appointed cabinet.

by misnome 8y ago

jopsen 8y ago
EU MPs are elected.
- misnome 8y ago
  Yes, but the council isn’t - each member is appointed by the governments. So, my point is, that if you claim its undemocratic then you also have to call national cabinets undemocratic, or ambassadorships undemocratic.
gambiting 8y ago
You do realise that every single EU citizen can vote for the EU parliament, right? It doesn't get any more democratic than this.
- coldtea 8y ago
  You do realize that citizens were allowed to vote in all number of dictatorships, right? Being able to vote is the bare minimum for a democracy, not its ultimate realization. The accountability of elected officials, the procedures, who and when voted for those procedures, the processes used, etc., are more important than merely being able to vote. In fact the mere decline in participation and lack of voter engagement is also indicative of the disconnect between Brussels and the national EU-voters. I'm more left-of-center myself, but even the right-of-center Economist put it somewhat well (if mildly): https://www.economist.com/briefing/2014/05/15/elected-yet-strangely-unaccountable https://www.economist.com/briefing/2014/05/15/elected-yet-st...
- misnome 8y ago
  I think you’ve thoroughly misread my post and it’s context. Please tell me where any citizen can vote for the European Comission - not parliament - which you can’t, because you do realize they are appointed by the heads of government in each country directly, which is why it’s wrongly targeted as “undemocratic”. My point is that if you call that undemocratic then there is lots of thing probably much closer to home that you should also critisize - like appointed cabinets forming the government - at least in the UK, you elect a local representative - nobody anywhere voted for e.g. Jeremy Hunt to be foreign secretary, so wouldn’t you have to argue that that is undemocratic also?

Only if you squint really hard. It's about as undemocratic as an appointed cabinet.

jopsen 8y ago

EU MPs are elected.

misnome 8y ago
Yes, but the council isn’t - each member is appointed by the governments. So, my point is, that if you claim its undemocratic then you also have to call national cabinets undemocratic, or ambassadorships undemocratic.

gambiting 8y ago

You do realise that every single EU citizen can vote for the EU parliament, right? It doesn't get any more democratic than this.

coldtea 8y ago
You do realize that citizens were allowed to vote in all number of dictatorships, right? Being able to vote is the bare minimum for a democracy, not its ultimate realization. The accountability of elected officials, the procedures, who and when voted for those procedures, the processes used, etc., are more important than merely being able to vote. In fact the mere decline in participation and lack of voter engagement is also indicative of the disconnect between Brussels and the national EU-voters. I'm more left-of-center myself, but even the right-of-center Economist put it somewhat well (if mildly): https://www.economist.com/briefing/2014/05/15/elected-yet-strangely-unaccountable https://www.economist.com/briefing/2014/05/15/elected-yet-st...
misnome 8y ago
I think you’ve thoroughly misread my post and it’s context. Please tell me where any citizen can vote for the European Comission - not parliament - which you can’t, because you do realize they are appointed by the heads of government in each country directly, which is why it’s wrongly targeted as “undemocratic”. My point is that if you call that undemocratic then there is lots of thing probably much closer to home that you should also critisize - like appointed cabinets forming the government - at least in the UK, you elect a local representative - nobody anywhere voted for e.g. Jeremy Hunt to be foreign secretary, so wouldn’t you have to argue that that is undemocratic also?