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> I have no idea how anyone could look at homeless people and think, “what they really need is a bit more suffering to finally get their act together”. As a pe

> I have no idea how anyone could look at homeless people and think, “what they really need is a bit more suffering to finally get their act together”. As a person who used to eat with the homeless every day in London, I absolutely do. There is so much opportunity for lazy and stupid people, especially in the West. A large proportion of the people lining up with me for food from the Hare Krishna people (and a local Christian church too) in Holborn were rude, entitled, and lazy. If kids were brought up with a little more discipline, they might become adults who appreciate hard graft. If this were true in London and that discipline were implemented, half the people in that food line wouldn't be there. Maybe that's why I rarely see homeless people in Poland. They work.

matt4077 8y ago
Wow, this is... quite something. It just doesn’t make that much sense: if homeless life in London is so excellent, have you ever considered taking it up? And because, of course, you didn’t: if you really believe it’s just their lazy choice, what’s the difference between you (and me) and them that we would rather work a few hours five days a week instead of spending winter nights outside in the London rain? As to why you see fewer homeless in Poland: - draconian laws banning these people from the streets (a practice most western countries consider a violation of some principles like just basic decency) - London happens to be a magnet for homeless people. Because the only thing worse than being homeless in the city is being homeless in rural areas - London and UK rents are something like 5x those in Poland - Poland’s homeless population tends to do that “digital nomad” thing, only without the MacBook. I. e. they prefer southern France, Berlin, or, yes, London - Poland tends to still have families living together, making it more likely that the cousin with schizophrenia is cared for within the family, instead of becoming homeless
- yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
  Some of your points seem to be based on the assumption that I'm tarring everyone with the same brush. That shouldn't be the case; I don't think all the homeless in London are just lazy. > if homeless life in London is so excellent, have you ever considered taking it up? It's not excellent. That's why I'm not doing it. The fact that it is not excellent was a motivator for me to work harder and make better life choices. This contrasts with the woman mentioned in the article who is happy with her free home because she can continue being an alcoholic. > what’s the difference between you (and me) and them that we would rather work a few hours five days a week instead of spending winter nights outside in the London rain? Attitude, mostly. I can't speak on your behalf, but I would have taken any job at the time. In fact, I did. I've worked several shitty jobs. Some people (including my fellow Hare Krishna free-street-food patrons) believe they're above certain kinds of work. > London and UK rents are something like 5x those in Poland This is an argument for more affordable housing, not for free houses. I certainly agree with a greater housing supply. In general, I am in support of improving people's opportunities of self-determination, rather than just giving people free stuff. > Poland tends to still have families living together, making it more likely that the cousin with schizophrenia is cared for within the family, instead of becoming homeless That is true, but I'm not such how it makes a case for either argument. If it's just to downplay my point about the Polish generally having a different attitude to work, then yes, I think that's a reasonable point, though our discussion is completely unscientific and there are no numbers to suggest how much of each is true.
smileypete 8y ago
Apparently rough sleepers from other European countries are over represented in London at 30% (not judging them btw, just the facts) so I'd say it's not a simple matter of 'work ethic': https://www.nao.org.uk/naoblog/growing-number-of-rough-sleepers/ https://www.nao.org.uk/naoblog/growing-number-of-rough-sleep...
- yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
  Thanks for adding some data; that’s certainly useful. From the article, the data show a high proportion of rough sleepers abusing substances. I would lump this in together with work ethic.

matt4077 8y ago

Wow, this is... quite something. It just doesn’t make that much sense: if homeless life in London is so excellent, have you ever considered taking it up? And because, of course, you didn’t: if you really believe it’s just their lazy choice, what’s the difference between you (and me) and them that we would rather work a few hours five days a week instead of spending winter nights outside in the London rain? As to why you see fewer homeless in Poland: - draconian laws banning these people from the streets (a practice most western countries consider a violation of some principles like just basic decency) - London happens to be a magnet for homeless people. Because the only thing worse than being homeless in the city is being homeless in rural areas - London and UK rents are something like 5x those in Poland - Poland’s homeless population tends to do that “digital nomad” thing, only without the MacBook. I. e. they prefer southern France, Berlin, or, yes, London - Poland tends to still have families living together, making it more likely that the cousin with schizophrenia is cared for within the family, instead of becoming homeless

yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
Some of your points seem to be based on the assumption that I'm tarring everyone with the same brush. That shouldn't be the case; I don't think all the homeless in London are just lazy. > if homeless life in London is so excellent, have you ever considered taking it up? It's not excellent. That's why I'm not doing it. The fact that it is not excellent was a motivator for me to work harder and make better life choices. This contrasts with the woman mentioned in the article who is happy with her free home because she can continue being an alcoholic. > what’s the difference between you (and me) and them that we would rather work a few hours five days a week instead of spending winter nights outside in the London rain? Attitude, mostly. I can't speak on your behalf, but I would have taken any job at the time. In fact, I did. I've worked several shitty jobs. Some people (including my fellow Hare Krishna free-street-food patrons) believe they're above certain kinds of work. > London and UK rents are something like 5x those in Poland This is an argument for more affordable housing, not for free houses. I certainly agree with a greater housing supply. In general, I am in support of improving people's opportunities of self-determination, rather than just giving people free stuff. > Poland tends to still have families living together, making it more likely that the cousin with schizophrenia is cared for within the family, instead of becoming homeless That is true, but I'm not such how it makes a case for either argument. If it's just to downplay my point about the Polish generally having a different attitude to work, then yes, I think that's a reasonable point, though our discussion is completely unscientific and there are no numbers to suggest how much of each is true.

smileypete 8y ago

Apparently rough sleepers from other European countries are over represented in London at 30% (not judging them btw, just the facts) so I'd say it's not a simple matter of 'work ethic': https://www.nao.org.uk/naoblog/growing-number-of-rough-sleepers/ https://www.nao.org.uk/naoblog/growing-number-of-rough-sleep...

yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
Thanks for adding some data; that’s certainly useful. From the article, the data show a high proportion of rough sleepers abusing substances. I would lump this in together with work ethic.