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I would say that it's far more likely that the system simply never worked properly. The amount of non-functional so-called "AI" features you find in China is as

I would say that it's far more likely that the system simply never worked properly. The amount of non-functional so-called "AI" features you find in China is astounding. A friend's apartment building got the latest facial-recognition door lock - which will open the door if you hold up his Facebook photo on your phone. Just the other day, my wife found out by accident that her friend's Huawei phone will unlock for her using its version of Face ID. They have similar facial structure but really look nothing alike. China is amazingly good at many things, but _genuine_ technological innovation is not something I've seen in my time here. No doubt this corruption-busting "AI" was developed by companies and people with deep connections to the relevant Party members, but little of the necessary experience or resources to actually carry out the project successfully. When it became clear that it didn't work and would never work, this story was a way to allow the responsible people to save face.

anonthos3261 8y ago
I think this is the case for most countries. Can you give an example of _genuine_ technological innovation that was done outside the US?
pishpash 8y ago
These days, AI means an inefficient chatbot standing in for the function of a simple webform. It's not even about working or not working.
rahimnathwani 8y ago
"the latest facial-recognition door lock - which will open the door if you hold up his Facebook photo on your phone" Meanwhile, Baidu's main campus has had facial recognition on entry gates for years (and the gates cannot be fooled by 2D photos). And Face++ (a Chinese company) provides SDKs to allow you to detect liveness (i.e. not a photo) via their APIs. This is used by many apps when a user registers for the first time. "her friend's Huawei phone will unlock for her using its version of Face ID" There was a well-reported story about someone who got a refund on their iPhone for the same reason. How is this a Chinese phenomenon? "but _genuine_ technological innovation is not something I've seen" How do you define this? There was a white paper linked here recently about how WeChat scales its backend systems to cope with load. Are none of those scaling techniques innovative? (And probably similar for taobao.)
- eastendguy 8y ago
  True innovation means to develop or do something not done elsewhere before. The products you listed sound good, but they are certainly not innovative.
  - rishav_sharan 8y ago
    That would be a difficult bar to exceed. Almost all major product innovations have been an iteration on existing products. From that definition, I cannot think of anything I would call "Truly Innovative". China, IMO has both innovative product and services as well as lazy copycats. Because the copycats are so many in number, we often don't regard the innovative stuff coming from there as well.
    - Para2016 8y ago
      Anecdotally, I bought a Huawei matebook laptop this past year. It was very cheap but looked cool - like a macbook. Funny thing though, the windows software was bootlegged and I had to use my institutional registration to get Windows software. I used to use Amazon's market place and have now stopped after accidentally purchasing Chinese fraudulent goods (I still use for digital content). My exposure to Chinese tech and goods, while limited, has now totally predisposed me negatively towards them. I haven't seen any innovative product personally. Just inconvenient knock off which have effectively stolen my money. If all Chinese tech goods were taken off the market, innovative or not, I would be happier knowing that I could start using a more trustworthy Amazon market place.
      - rahimnathwani 8y ago
        Did the Huawei matebook come in factory-sealed packaging, or had the wholesaler/retailer tampered with it? (A friend in China experienced a similar issue with another brand. It came with Chinese Windows from the factory, but the retailer had installed a bootleg version of English Windows.) "If all Chinese tech goods were taken off the market" then which tech goods would be left? Are there any tech goods that include no Chinese components? What % of Chinese components is acceptable to you (assuming non-zero)?
EGreg 8y ago
When will these people implementing the biometrics learn... BIOMETRICS ARE ONLY DONE SECURELY ON PERSONAL DEVICES UNDER YOUR CONTROL! Otherwise replay attacks are trivial. China has “smile to pay” which is ridiculous. Hopefully it’s for small amounts. Look, biometrics can be used as an id (public key) but not a password (private key) And as for USA ... same goes triple for social security numbers people!!!
- consp 8y ago
  Aren't social security numbers explicitly non-public data? They are supposed to be that around here and the government has done the nice thing of including them in some people their (one-man) business account numbers which need to be published... For everything else: True.
  - michaelt 8y ago
    In theory, (a) social security numbers should not be used for identity verification and (b) social security numbers should be kept private. In practice, (a) social security numbers are gathered, stored and used for identity verification by thousands of private organisations and (b) those records are frequently leaked.
- raverbashing 8y ago
  They can't even be used as an ID. They can be used to "verify" an id (weaker than a password, but maybe good enough to eliminate an impersonator), but not to SELECT $person FROM all_users
Accacin 8y ago
The phone thing isn't unique to Huawei. My wife has two sisters and they can unlock each others phones using Face ID. They were surprised when they realised this so I don't think they added each other's face or anything (I don't know if you can do that though..).
tabtab 8y ago
AI smells ever more bubbly as the months go by. The average revenue from AI companies cannot justify their current market value, which suggests something financially unpleasant will befall them.

anonthos3261 8y ago

I think this is the case for most countries. Can you give an example of _genuine_ technological innovation that was done outside the US?

pishpash 8y ago

These days, AI means an inefficient chatbot standing in for the function of a simple webform. It's not even about working or not working.

rahimnathwani 8y ago

"the latest facial-recognition door lock - which will open the door if you hold up his Facebook photo on your phone" Meanwhile, Baidu's main campus has had facial recognition on entry gates for years (and the gates cannot be fooled by 2D photos). And Face++ (a Chinese company) provides SDKs to allow you to detect liveness (i.e. not a photo) via their APIs. This is used by many apps when a user registers for the first time. "her friend's Huawei phone will unlock for her using its version of Face ID" There was a well-reported story about someone who got a refund on their iPhone for the same reason. How is this a Chinese phenomenon? "but _genuine_ technological innovation is not something I've seen" How do you define this? There was a white paper linked here recently about how WeChat scales its backend systems to cope with load. Are none of those scaling techniques innovative? (And probably similar for taobao.)

eastendguy 8y ago
True innovation means to develop or do something not done elsewhere before. The products you listed sound good, but they are certainly not innovative.
- rishav_sharan 8y ago
  That would be a difficult bar to exceed. Almost all major product innovations have been an iteration on existing products. From that definition, I cannot think of anything I would call "Truly Innovative". China, IMO has both innovative product and services as well as lazy copycats. Because the copycats are so many in number, we often don't regard the innovative stuff coming from there as well.
  - Para2016 8y ago
    Anecdotally, I bought a Huawei matebook laptop this past year. It was very cheap but looked cool - like a macbook. Funny thing though, the windows software was bootlegged and I had to use my institutional registration to get Windows software. I used to use Amazon's market place and have now stopped after accidentally purchasing Chinese fraudulent goods (I still use for digital content). My exposure to Chinese tech and goods, while limited, has now totally predisposed me negatively towards them. I haven't seen any innovative product personally. Just inconvenient knock off which have effectively stolen my money. If all Chinese tech goods were taken off the market, innovative or not, I would be happier knowing that I could start using a more trustworthy Amazon market place.
    - rahimnathwani 8y ago
      Did the Huawei matebook come in factory-sealed packaging, or had the wholesaler/retailer tampered with it? (A friend in China experienced a similar issue with another brand. It came with Chinese Windows from the factory, but the retailer had installed a bootleg version of English Windows.) "If all Chinese tech goods were taken off the market" then which tech goods would be left? Are there any tech goods that include no Chinese components? What % of Chinese components is acceptable to you (assuming non-zero)?

EGreg 8y ago

When will these people implementing the biometrics learn... BIOMETRICS ARE ONLY DONE SECURELY ON PERSONAL DEVICES UNDER YOUR CONTROL! Otherwise replay attacks are trivial. China has “smile to pay” which is ridiculous. Hopefully it’s for small amounts. Look, biometrics can be used as an id (public key) but not a password (private key) And as for USA ... same goes triple for social security numbers people!!!

consp 8y ago
Aren't social security numbers explicitly non-public data? They are supposed to be that around here and the government has done the nice thing of including them in some people their (one-man) business account numbers which need to be published... For everything else: True.
- michaelt 8y ago
  In theory, (a) social security numbers should not be used for identity verification and (b) social security numbers should be kept private. In practice, (a) social security numbers are gathered, stored and used for identity verification by thousands of private organisations and (b) those records are frequently leaked.
raverbashing 8y ago
They can't even be used as an ID. They can be used to "verify" an id (weaker than a password, but maybe good enough to eliminate an impersonator), but not to SELECT $person FROM all_users

Accacin 8y ago

The phone thing isn't unique to Huawei. My wife has two sisters and they can unlock each others phones using Face ID. They were surprised when they realised this so I don't think they added each other's face or anything (I don't know if you can do that though..).

tabtab 8y ago

AI smells ever more bubbly as the months go by. The average revenue from AI companies cannot justify their current market value, which suggests something financially unpleasant will befall them.