5 ms·

The benefits of this labor go to the private business, while the economic and social costs (education, healthcare including pregnancies the workers don't earn e

The benefits of this labor go to the private business, while the economic and social costs (education, healthcare including pregnancies the workers don't earn enough to pay for, so the state pays for it) are borne by others.

empath75 8y ago
And they scapegoat the workers who are powerless, instead of the employers, like Trump.
- m0zg 8y ago
  Except, of course, Trump is trying to get them to hire workers who are not powerless, and can legally demand the minimum wage and protection under US law at least.
  - orf 8y ago
    Whilst employing cheaper undocumented labour at a number of his properties to set an example?
  - 8note 8y ago
    huh? he's making the undocumented folks not powerless and able to demand at least minimum wage? I guess that would do a good job at making poor Americans more competitive against undocumented workers
    - m0zg 8y ago
      He's trying to prop up the working poor by reducing labor supply. I mean it's either that or putting them on welfare. And I don't know about you but I'd rather they were able to take care of themselves. I'll pay a little more at the grocery store.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - Qworg 8y ago
        It isn't sub-minimum though - farm labor rates in CA are $14+ - twice to three times minimum. There still isn't enough labor.
        m0zg 8y ago
        Is that with or without full-time benefits? And how do you know the "under the table" labor rates illegals get? Labor will be there if price of labor goes up. Price of labor will go up if supply is constrained. Economics 101. This is not a high skill occupation where there can be a genuine shortage of labor. This is way more elastic.
  - colechristensen 8y ago
    Keep in mind that the reason it is being done is for appearances and popularity, not the actual underlying issue. Most of the things you hear politicians talking about they don't care about beyond how the issue -- and what they say about it -- effects their power and electability.
    - m0zg 8y ago
      That's a cynical view to take, so no, I won't "keep in mind". There's nothing wrong about popularity. So far he's doing all right on the jobs front.
      - diminoten 8y ago
        Cynical or not, it's more true than false. You can't just believe things you like...
      - freehunter 8y ago
        Yeah he's doing alright on the jobs front by hiring undocumented workers for his own companies at the same time he's sending ICE to rip them out of other companies.
  - whyisthewhat 8y ago
    His policies are designed to selectively terrorize migrant labor and make it impossible for them to have recourse to the state. This keeps wages low because no private businesses are seriously penalized for employing migrant labor, but the laborers themselves are at risk of being brutalized by the immigration authorities if they attempt to seek redress for unfair treatment by their employers. The way to actually resolve the issue would be to aggressively enforce labor laws without regard to the worker's immigration status, because they would remove the incentive for private business to use migrant labor in the first place.
    - m0zg 8y ago
      It's not "migrant" labor. It's labor which consists of people who _have broken US law_, and it's hired by people who are also breaking US law. It's like that article a few weeks back which called an armed home invader an "unwanted house visitor". These people _can't legally work here_, like, at all. If this is something you don't like, have your congresspeople change the law. Selective enforcement of laws is an insanely slippery slope, you won't like where it ends. I'm an immigrant myself. I didn't just come here and start working. I had to go through a lot of hoops so that the US would make sure I wasn't going to be a burden and my presence in the US could be good for the US.
      - rhizome 8y ago
        What penalty (or penalties) do you think is fair for companies that hire "people who have broken US law?"
      - mbesto 8y ago
        > It's labor which consists of people who _have broken US law_, and it's hired by people who are also breaking US law Of which Trump himself is guilty of [0]. Why isn't Trump in jail for that specific crime already then? You see the parent's point now? [0] - https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-trump-organization-employed-illegal-immigrants-2019-01-30 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-trump-organization-emp...
        8y ago
  - empath75 8y ago
    He himself employs a ton of illegal immigrants and his companies were even forging documents for them.
- Nasrudith 8y ago
  Cynically it appears to be several additional layers of fucked up misdirection. First off the immigration enforcement targeting by employee's effects seems to be geared actively at undermining worker power to say "give me a raise or I will head down the street" by suppression targetted at employees instead of demand while giving a deniable cudgel. Many of the people complaining about illegal immigrants while benefiting are shocked when their shakedowns result in labor shortages because people actually take them at their word. Regardless of intentions it is worth condemning because nothing works for any valid stated purpose. The resulting system is a massive web of interblended malice and stupidity of actors who refuse to learn that characterizes much of legal policy like the war on drugs. It isn't an American thing or even a capitalism thing. The USSR had plenty of stupid-malicious systems. I suspect sociopaths are to blame in all cases - it bears their thumbprints of dysfunctional systems that benefit them personally and get people to act selfishly in a way that doesn't even benefit them.

empath75 8y ago

And they scapegoat the workers who are powerless, instead of the employers, like Trump.

m0zg 8y ago
Except, of course, Trump is trying to get them to hire workers who are not powerless, and can legally demand the minimum wage and protection under US law at least.
- orf 8y ago
  Whilst employing cheaper undocumented labour at a number of his properties to set an example?
- 8note 8y ago
  huh? he's making the undocumented folks not powerless and able to demand at least minimum wage? I guess that would do a good job at making poor Americans more competitive against undocumented workers
  - m0zg 8y ago
    He's trying to prop up the working poor by reducing labor supply. I mean it's either that or putting them on welfare. And I don't know about you but I'd rather they were able to take care of themselves. I'll pay a little more at the grocery store.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - Qworg 8y ago
      It isn't sub-minimum though - farm labor rates in CA are $14+ - twice to three times minimum. There still isn't enough labor.
      - m0zg 8y ago
        Is that with or without full-time benefits? And how do you know the "under the table" labor rates illegals get? Labor will be there if price of labor goes up. Price of labor will go up if supply is constrained. Economics 101. This is not a high skill occupation where there can be a genuine shortage of labor. This is way more elastic.
- colechristensen 8y ago
  Keep in mind that the reason it is being done is for appearances and popularity, not the actual underlying issue. Most of the things you hear politicians talking about they don't care about beyond how the issue -- and what they say about it -- effects their power and electability.
  - m0zg 8y ago
    That's a cynical view to take, so no, I won't "keep in mind". There's nothing wrong about popularity. So far he's doing all right on the jobs front.
    - diminoten 8y ago
      Cynical or not, it's more true than false. You can't just believe things you like...
    - freehunter 8y ago
      Yeah he's doing alright on the jobs front by hiring undocumented workers for his own companies at the same time he's sending ICE to rip them out of other companies.
- whyisthewhat 8y ago
  His policies are designed to selectively terrorize migrant labor and make it impossible for them to have recourse to the state. This keeps wages low because no private businesses are seriously penalized for employing migrant labor, but the laborers themselves are at risk of being brutalized by the immigration authorities if they attempt to seek redress for unfair treatment by their employers. The way to actually resolve the issue would be to aggressively enforce labor laws without regard to the worker's immigration status, because they would remove the incentive for private business to use migrant labor in the first place.
  - m0zg 8y ago
    It's not "migrant" labor. It's labor which consists of people who _have broken US law_, and it's hired by people who are also breaking US law. It's like that article a few weeks back which called an armed home invader an "unwanted house visitor". These people _can't legally work here_, like, at all. If this is something you don't like, have your congresspeople change the law. Selective enforcement of laws is an insanely slippery slope, you won't like where it ends. I'm an immigrant myself. I didn't just come here and start working. I had to go through a lot of hoops so that the US would make sure I wasn't going to be a burden and my presence in the US could be good for the US.
    - rhizome 8y ago
      What penalty (or penalties) do you think is fair for companies that hire "people who have broken US law?"
    - mbesto 8y ago
      > It's labor which consists of people who _have broken US law_, and it's hired by people who are also breaking US law Of which Trump himself is guilty of [0]. Why isn't Trump in jail for that specific crime already then? You see the parent's point now? [0] - https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-trump-organization-employed-illegal-immigrants-2019-01-30 https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-trump-organization-emp...
      - 8y ago
- empath75 8y ago
  He himself employs a ton of illegal immigrants and his companies were even forging documents for them.
Nasrudith 8y ago
Cynically it appears to be several additional layers of fucked up misdirection. First off the immigration enforcement targeting by employee's effects seems to be geared actively at undermining worker power to say "give me a raise or I will head down the street" by suppression targetted at employees instead of demand while giving a deniable cudgel. Many of the people complaining about illegal immigrants while benefiting are shocked when their shakedowns result in labor shortages because people actually take them at their word. Regardless of intentions it is worth condemning because nothing works for any valid stated purpose. The resulting system is a massive web of interblended malice and stupidity of actors who refuse to learn that characterizes much of legal policy like the war on drugs. It isn't an American thing or even a capitalism thing. The USSR had plenty of stupid-malicious systems. I suspect sociopaths are to blame in all cases - it bears their thumbprints of dysfunctional systems that benefit them personally and get people to act selfishly in a way that doesn't even benefit them.