7 ms·
You don't get fined for failing to produce ID but you can be fined for swearing at the police, which is what happened in this case. If he politely refused to sh
by robjan 8y ago
You don't get fined for failing to produce ID but you can be fined for swearing at the police, which is what happened in this case. If he politely refused to show ID, there is nothing the police can do unless they have reasonable suspicion that the guy was committing a crime
- Simon_says 8y ago> fined for swearing at the police Punished for speech?
- robjan 8y agoAll speech isn't equal. Nobody has the right to use threatening or intimidating language
- yardie 8y agoTelling someone to “piss off” is neither threatening nor intimidating.
- robjan 8y ago@yardie it entirely depends on the intonation and any body language. If you shout "piss off" at someone whilst acting aggressively then I would argue that it's intimidating
- abnry 8y agoI'd never advocate showing anything but the upmost respect to the police. But as a matter of policy, who is really the one being threatening here? The man bristling at the government collecting personal data or the police officer with backup and (presumably) violent means of arresting the man?
- DanBC 8y agoThe people being threatened are not the police, but the other members of the public. (I'm not saying that I agree with this, but it is the argument being used).
- salawat 8y agoWhere is this 'public'? Is this the same group of people who keep expressing opinions that my rights should be curtailed? Officer, arrest them! They are intimidating me by their refusal to respect my human rights! It's kind of a slippery slope once you start trying to carve the troublemakers out from the public. That action can even be said to be incitory by it's nature. Perhaps the police should arrest themselves for being a walking intimidation tool for the majority? Dirty business that. If you're not interfering in a clearly criminal act, you are just acting as an intimidation force. Unjustified weaponization of suspicion can be just as harmful to a Law Enforcement Organiztion's legitimacy as unjustified use of lethal force. The criminals you avoid creating through mounting I'll will and despair from the inevitable taint of interacting with the legal system will be a net gain for society. I'm not saying without Leo's there would be no criminals; rather that continual nuisance and intrusion of the Systems in law abiding citizen's lives only serves to push more of the population toward unrest.
- clubm8 8y ago> I'd never advocate showing anything but the upmost respect to the police. I'd advocate showing nothing but contempt to a police officer who refuses to let me go about my business when I have committed no crimes.
- gaius 8y ago"piss off" is accurately interpreted as "go away and leave me alone". Whereas "fucking come on then" is often a precursor to violence. But sure, intonation is a thing. "I beg your pardon" can be said in a threatening way.
- deogeo 8y agoSo why is the punishment for 'swearing' instead of 'intimidating a police officer'?
- clubm8 8y ago> @yardie it entirely depends on the intonation and any body language. If you shout "piss off" at someone whilst acting aggressively then I would argue that it's intimidating Well I'm sure the UK has professionals who can help you with these feelings of anxiety and dread
- johnisgood 8y agoWhy not though? It's just language, which you can decide to ignore. Being annoying by repetitively saying something, or shouting in someone's face or ears, is of course different, but not because of the content of what has been said.
- clubm8 8y ago> All speech isn't equal. Nobody has the right to use threatening or intimidating language Is being told to "piss off" intimidating or threatening?
- SlowRobotAhead 8y agoThat is correct. UK has no enumerated right of “free speech” as it exists in the USZ This is common in most European counties.
- johnisgood 8y agoAre you sure you can't get fined or detained or whatever for not showing ID? Cops would find that really really suspicious. I thought you were legally obliged to show ID when asked anyway, at least in the UK. Is it not the case? I would say that the act of not showing ID would be "reasonable suspicion" by itself. Maybe not, but curious how it plays out in practice, and what the law has to say about it.
- robjan 8y agoThere is no national ID card in the UK so it would be impossible to enforce. There is no law saying you have to produce ID on request and "reasonable suspicion" only applies to a specific crime. The police can't just say that they have "reasonable suspicion" that you are committing an unspecified crime.
- johnisgood 8y agoDoes "reasonable suspicion" imply an unspecified crime? Does it have to be the case? Suspicion doesn't necessarily mean that it is the case, so as long as they can come up with reasons, it's fine, and they don't need to be correct, or at least they won't get "punished" for being incorrect. Is it wrong? I am just trying to gather more information. :D Hmm, how do you generally prove identity in the UK?[1] [1] Actually this is something I could easily look up on the Internet, sorry. I don't mean to waste your time.
- robjan 8y agoBasically the police can stop you if they have "reasonable suspicion of committing crime x" and they have to tell you which crime they suspect you of and why. To prove who we are we can use a driving license or passport, if we have one. But there are many people with neither. In that case it's quite complex and usually requires a trustworthy person (doctor, lawyer, chartered engineer) who knows you well to confirm your identity.
- NeedMoreTea 8y agoReasonable suspicion that you are breaking the law, or are about to break the law. They may be required to justify their grounds, i.e. what they suspect you of and why. They have been known to simply ignore those requests for why. e.g. I suspect you of going equipped to commit burglary due to your stripey jumper, crowbar and bag with "swag" printed on it. Proving ID is usually done via passport or driving licence. If you don't have those producing a couple from bank statement, utility bill or council tax bill is usually enough. I'm old enough to have got bank account without any requirement for ID at all. Yes, that means it can be a chain of circumstantial evidence rather than proof.
- mikeash 8y agoYou can be fined for swearing at the police, in a supposedly free country? What a bunch of fucking bullshit.
- peteretep 8y agoI'll take police you can get in trouble for swearing at over police who shoot you, any day. Also, the UK is far from a free country. Also: nothing stopping UK parliament passing bills of attainder, even if they don't, so it's far from a free country.
- jandrese 8y agoSounds to me like if you don't produce an ID the cops will hit you with one of those "contempt of cop" charges that give them enough authority to haul you into the station and take prints.
- codedokode 8y ago> If he politely refused to show ID, there is nothing the police can do Is it really so? Why would then police ask for an ID if anyone can refuse and get away with it?