4 ms·

Let me restate myself, then: this study is building on ones that have already presented plausibly proven clinical efficacy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dt

Let me restate myself, then: this study is building on ones that have already presented plausibly proven clinical efficacy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DtJGJWjDys https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DtJGJWjDys https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27190490 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27190490 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027858460700070X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027858460... https://www.foundmyfitness.com/reports/cold-stress.pdf https://www.foundmyfitness.com/reports/cold-stress.pdf

arkades 8y ago
So, I haven't seen this before. So I thought I'd take a look: Sources 1 and 4 are both from the "FoundMyFitness" folks. One is a YT video, and the other is a layman's article that, from what I see, is an argument including things like "here are various physiological routes that may play a role. Therefore, it works." A lot of pointing at mice models. Almost no reference to human studies at all. I went through it looking for what they referred to as evidence in humans, and found citations like Shevchuk 2008 ("Practical testing by a statistically insignificant number of people, who did not have sufficient symptoms to be diagnosed with depression, showed that the cold hydrotherapy can relieve depressive symptoms rather effectively"), and Gordh 1998 (an assessment of administration of 10 patients receiving epidural clonidine for pain relief, not cryotherapy), and Pertovaara 2003 (an assessment of rats getting fadolmidine, an alpha-2 agonist like clonidine). Your link #2, Tricas-Moreno 2016, is a case study of a single young athlete with ankylosing spondylitis receiving multimodal physical therapy - "with orthopedic joint mobilization, dry needling, exercise, and whole-body hyperthermia." Not that a single case report actually means anything, but for what it's worth, he received the opposite of cryotherapy. And source 3, Pae 2007, was a descriptive study showing that certain genetic variants for inflammatory mediators were associated with better or worse responses to antidepressants ("In conclusion, genetic variants within the genes coding for HSP-70 family proteins may affect the action of antidepressants and thus their therapeutic efficacy,") and that these markers went up or down in response to antidepressants, not that the presence of inflammation itself was causal. Nor was there any empirical assessment at all of cryotherapy as a treatment modality. So, to summarize: Source 1 and 4 seem to be some layman's stuff that, at best, points at some studies that suggest a possible mechanism, at the 10,000-foot level of "inflammation happens, it might be involved with depression, if you do things that might mediate some types of inflammation, you might mediate depression." Source 2 is a physical therapy case study of a guy that got the opposite therapy. Source 3 elaborates slightly on "inflammation may play a role in depression." None of this at all shows any clinical efficacy, whatever. None of these are clinical studies of cryotherapy in depression.
- WalterSear 8y ago
  Sorry, that was the wrong ankylosing spndylitis reference. The last link, like the first, I passed on because it is full of references to primary articles. In any case, you don't seem to have the background in rheumatic diseases to evaluate any of this, and I don't have the time to pass on the knowledge I've garnered, as a sufferer, and also a life sciences engineer working on autoimmune and genetic engineering problems. Consequently this has already devolved into a Joe Rogan-style internet argument. If this stuff is important to you,keep watching the news, there's a lot of good research that's going to reach outside academia in the next couple of years, regarding hyper/hypothermia, heat shock proteins, and autoimmune and mood disorders.
  - arkades 8y ago
    Your first and last links didn't have references to primary articles of clinical assessments. Your third article was more of the same. Your second article was just funny because it pointed to the opposite therapy. > as a sufferer, and also a life sciences engineer working on autoimmune and genetic engineering problems. I wish you could join me in the irony of being a physician with an autoimmune disease being told "you don't seem to have the background" to evaluate your citations.
    - WalterSear 8y ago
      That is ironic. Unfortunately, according to my oncologist friends, it's also commonplace. You reviewed what I posted with an aim to proving me wrong, not expanding your knowledge, and then prove me wrong. Kind of a terribly attitude in a physician, and really self-destructive to those dealing with autoimmune disease.
      - joveian 8y ago
        "You reviewed what I posted with an aim to proving me wrong" As an uninvolved reader I had the opposite impression.

arkades 8y ago

So, I haven't seen this before. So I thought I'd take a look: Sources 1 and 4 are both from the "FoundMyFitness" folks. One is a YT video, and the other is a layman's article that, from what I see, is an argument including things like "here are various physiological routes that may play a role. Therefore, it works." A lot of pointing at mice models. Almost no reference to human studies at all. I went through it looking for what they referred to as evidence in humans, and found citations like Shevchuk 2008 ("Practical testing by a statistically insignificant number of people, who did not have sufficient symptoms to be diagnosed with depression, showed that the cold hydrotherapy can relieve depressive symptoms rather effectively"), and Gordh 1998 (an assessment of administration of 10 patients receiving epidural clonidine for pain relief, not cryotherapy), and Pertovaara 2003 (an assessment of rats getting fadolmidine, an alpha-2 agonist like clonidine). Your link #2, Tricas-Moreno 2016, is a case study of a single young athlete with ankylosing spondylitis receiving multimodal physical therapy - "with orthopedic joint mobilization, dry needling, exercise, and whole-body hyperthermia." Not that a single case report actually means anything, but for what it's worth, he received the opposite of cryotherapy. And source 3, Pae 2007, was a descriptive study showing that certain genetic variants for inflammatory mediators were associated with better or worse responses to antidepressants ("In conclusion, genetic variants within the genes coding for HSP-70 family proteins may affect the action of antidepressants and thus their therapeutic efficacy,") and that these markers went up or down in response to antidepressants, not that the presence of inflammation itself was causal. Nor was there any empirical assessment at all of cryotherapy as a treatment modality. So, to summarize: Source 1 and 4 seem to be some layman's stuff that, at best, points at some studies that suggest a possible mechanism, at the 10,000-foot level of "inflammation happens, it might be involved with depression, if you do things that might mediate some types of inflammation, you might mediate depression." Source 2 is a physical therapy case study of a guy that got the opposite therapy. Source 3 elaborates slightly on "inflammation may play a role in depression." None of this at all shows any clinical efficacy, whatever. None of these are clinical studies of cryotherapy in depression.

WalterSear 8y ago
Sorry, that was the wrong ankylosing spndylitis reference. The last link, like the first, I passed on because it is full of references to primary articles. In any case, you don't seem to have the background in rheumatic diseases to evaluate any of this, and I don't have the time to pass on the knowledge I've garnered, as a sufferer, and also a life sciences engineer working on autoimmune and genetic engineering problems. Consequently this has already devolved into a Joe Rogan-style internet argument. If this stuff is important to you,keep watching the news, there's a lot of good research that's going to reach outside academia in the next couple of years, regarding hyper/hypothermia, heat shock proteins, and autoimmune and mood disorders.
- arkades 8y ago
  Your first and last links didn't have references to primary articles of clinical assessments. Your third article was more of the same. Your second article was just funny because it pointed to the opposite therapy. > as a sufferer, and also a life sciences engineer working on autoimmune and genetic engineering problems. I wish you could join me in the irony of being a physician with an autoimmune disease being told "you don't seem to have the background" to evaluate your citations.
  - WalterSear 8y ago
    That is ironic. Unfortunately, according to my oncologist friends, it's also commonplace. You reviewed what I posted with an aim to proving me wrong, not expanding your knowledge, and then prove me wrong. Kind of a terribly attitude in a physician, and really self-destructive to those dealing with autoimmune disease.
    - joveian 8y ago
      "You reviewed what I posted with an aim to proving me wrong" As an uninvolved reader I had the opposite impression.