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Maybe not even a coincidence! Maybe extremely high SAT and grades are correlated with poor 'holistic' qualities such as social skills, communication, leadershi

Maybe not even a coincidence! Maybe extremely high SAT and grades are correlated with poor 'holistic' qualities such as social skills, communication, leadership, creativity, 'round character' (i.e. athleticism, disposition, generosity, musicianship). I'm not saying they are - I'm saying it wouldn't really surprise me if they were, and then we have to think about it a little bit! It's a tricky subject no doubt.

tomrod 8y ago
I don't think it's a tricky subject in the way that fluid dynamics is tricky. I do think it is difficult to communicate openly about because systemic favor and disfavor lie so close to individual identity that those favored have a hard time acknowledging it and those disfavored have a hard time being listened to. The ego is super enmeshed.
ThrowawayR2 8y ago
> Maybe extremely high SAT and grades are correlated with poor 'holistic' qualities such as social skills, communication, leadership, creativity, 'round character' (i.e. athleticism, disposition, generosity, musicianship). If that were so, it would affect members of all ethnicities who had the same high SAT scores and grades equally.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  Good point, but those 'other qualities' may not be distributed very evenly among the remaining applicants. This is an ugly problem to have. I don't envy anyone in this situation.
leereeves 8y ago
Many of those "poor 'holistic' qualities" can be code words for discrimination. "Social skills" for neurotypical, "leadership" for attractive, "athleticism" for not disabled, "disposition" for obedient. Even if you're right and extremely high SAT and grades are correlated with neurodiversity, physical problems, or rebelliousness, are those qualities colleges should be discriminating against?
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  Or maybe 'leadership' actually means 'leadership'? And 'athletic' means 'athletic'? They are unless you have a heap of evidence to suggest they are not. And yes, Universities should definitely be considering all of those qualities, most of them do to the extent they can.
  - leereeves 8y ago
    There's certainly a heap of evidence of discrimination against neurodiversity, physical problems, and rebelliousness. It's certainly been talked about enough. If you're not aware of it that's only because you've chosen to ignore it.

tomrod 8y ago

I don't think it's a tricky subject in the way that fluid dynamics is tricky. I do think it is difficult to communicate openly about because systemic favor and disfavor lie so close to individual identity that those favored have a hard time acknowledging it and those disfavored have a hard time being listened to. The ego is super enmeshed.

ThrowawayR2 8y ago

> Maybe extremely high SAT and grades are correlated with poor 'holistic' qualities such as social skills, communication, leadership, creativity, 'round character' (i.e. athleticism, disposition, generosity, musicianship). If that were so, it would affect members of all ethnicities who had the same high SAT scores and grades equally.

sonnyblarney 8y ago
Good point, but those 'other qualities' may not be distributed very evenly among the remaining applicants. This is an ugly problem to have. I don't envy anyone in this situation.

leereeves 8y ago

Many of those "poor 'holistic' qualities" can be code words for discrimination. "Social skills" for neurotypical, "leadership" for attractive, "athleticism" for not disabled, "disposition" for obedient. Even if you're right and extremely high SAT and grades are correlated with neurodiversity, physical problems, or rebelliousness, are those qualities colleges should be discriminating against?

sonnyblarney 8y ago
Or maybe 'leadership' actually means 'leadership'? And 'athletic' means 'athletic'? They are unless you have a heap of evidence to suggest they are not. And yes, Universities should definitely be considering all of those qualities, most of them do to the extent they can.
- leereeves 8y ago
  There's certainly a heap of evidence of discrimination against neurodiversity, physical problems, and rebelliousness. It's certainly been talked about enough. If you're not aware of it that's only because you've chosen to ignore it.