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What’s it going to look like if they ruled in favor of Jewish students as a harmed class back in the day and then against Asians this time around? Should Asians

by sp527 8y ago

What’s it going to look like if they ruled in favor of Jewish students as a harmed class back in the day and then against Asians this time around? Should Asians all get their skin bleached to not be abused in the elite college admissions process? Should we get Anglo names, avoid Asian extracurriculars and other indications of Asianness, and mark ourselves as White? > Certain private universities, most notably Harvard, introduced policies which effectively placed a quota on the number of Jews admitted to the university. According to historian David Oshinsky, on writing about Jonas Salk, "Most of the surrounding medical schools (Cornell, Columbia, Pennsylvania, and Yale) had rigid quotas in place. In 1935 Yale accepted 76 applicants from a pool of 501. About 200 of those applicants were Jewish and only five got in." He notes that Dean Milton Winternitz's instructions were remarkably precise: "Never admit more than five Jews, take only two Italian Catholics, and take no blacks at all."[15] As a result, Oshinsky added, "Jonas Salk and hundreds like him" enrolled in New York University instead.[16] Physicist and Nobel laureate Richard P. Feynman was turned away from Columbia College in the 1930s and went to MIT instead. See also Numerus clausus in the United States. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_quota https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_quota Trigger warning: as an Asian, I don’t care about helping Black and Latino people if it means hurting me, and especially when society has already chosen not to exert equivalent unfair treatment on another race (and the optics are especially not great when said race can be lumped in as ‘White’).

betterunix2 8y ago
The argument for affirmative action is not simply that some groups were historically disadvantaged by university admissions bodies. Some groups are still put at a disadvantage long before they begin the college admissions process (which is often compounded by the historical efforts to disadvantage their parents). Some groups may never have been specifically targeted by universities, but because of systematic repression elsewhere in society they are unrepresented in some fields of study. There is also the general benefit of having a diverse student body, so that people from different backgrounds can bring different ideas, experiences, and ways of thinking with them to the university, which benefits all students (regardless of why they were admitted). You do not have to agree with those points, but you should at least know what it is that you are disagreeing with. Also, as a Jew, I would rather not see minority groups using the history of antisemitism as a wedge against other minorities. While everyone is arguing about affirmative action, Harvard is admitting "legacy" students simply because their parents happened to attend Harvard, which helps to lengthen the effects of Harvard's discriminatory policies against earlier generations (to the detriment of Jewish, Asian, Black, and Latino applicants).
- fmajid 8y ago
  Studies show the grandchildren of Vietnam war draftees still suffer an economic hit 2 generations later, so it’s unsurprising slavery casts a pall to this day. “Diversity” in elite colleges is a scam, essentially rich urban whites throwing poor rural whites under the bus to give themselves a good conscience. Most of the “African-American” candidates have either one white parent of are of Caribbean origin, not the descendants of slaves, and the bonus for them is not means-tested. Don’t expect to find many kids from inner-city ghettoes or the barrio there. It’s easy to get statistics on racial diversity at US universities but getting numbers on socio-economic diversity is like pulling teeth. SFFA’s suggestion to give a bonus to poor students has a lot of merit, but of course it would upset the elite apple cart at Harvard, which is why they resist it so strenuously.
  - danmaz74 8y ago
    > of Caribbean origin I'm curious, what would be the rationale behind this?
  - zozbot123 8y ago
    > ...are of Caribbean origin, not the descendants of slaves Dude, seriously? Educate yourself, FFS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_British_and_French_Caribbean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_British_and_Fre...
  - sp527 8y ago
    It should be noted that if admissions were perfectly race blind and did (rightfully) correct for financial means, you would likely still end up with more poor Jews and Asians in the student body than Blacks and Hispanics. And that is why they don’t do it. Because it still wouldn’t give them the pretty superficial picture of diversity they’re looking for. The uncomfortable truth here is that they’re using a coarse-grained and super messed up attribute (race) to correct for a problem that goes much deeper than pure economic disparities.
- gizmo686 8y ago
  I agree that legacy should be done away with. However, the class of people who legacy harms is those whose parents did not attend Harvard. The overwhelming majority of White students fall into that class as well, and are just as harmed by legacy admissions as non-White students. Also, as a Jew, I would rather not see people act as if anti-Jewish discrimination is so special that we somehow cannot look to that history for lessons on any issue that is not anti-Jewish discrimination. Be happy that (in this country) the overwhelming majority of people have come to accept that anti-semitism is wrong, and lets leverage that to help other groups. There was a lot of suffering to get that recognition for Jews. There was a lot of suffering to get that recognition for Blacks. Maybe we can short circuit some of the suffering this time around for the next group. [0] [0] Although, frankly, I doubt we will see a turn around in our view of Asians anytime soon. If there is one thing I have learned from American History, it is that anti-Asian sentiments seems to be immune from social pushback for some reason.
natalyarostova 8y ago
I actually agree with you in substance, but the glib 'trigger warning' at the end does yourself no services in convincing others.
- sp527 8y ago
  Fair enough. Needless to say I have a lot of heavy emotions on this subject.
  - natalyarostova 8y ago
    That's understandable. Being discriminated against sucks.

by sp527 8y ago

betterunix2 8y ago

The argument for affirmative action is not simply that some groups were historically disadvantaged by university admissions bodies. Some groups are still put at a disadvantage long before they begin the college admissions process (which is often compounded by the historical efforts to disadvantage their parents). Some groups may never have been specifically targeted by universities, but because of systematic repression elsewhere in society they are unrepresented in some fields of study. There is also the general benefit of having a diverse student body, so that people from different backgrounds can bring different ideas, experiences, and ways of thinking with them to the university, which benefits all students (regardless of why they were admitted). You do not have to agree with those points, but you should at least know what it is that you are disagreeing with. Also, as a Jew, I would rather not see minority groups using the history of antisemitism as a wedge against other minorities. While everyone is arguing about affirmative action, Harvard is admitting "legacy" students simply because their parents happened to attend Harvard, which helps to lengthen the effects of Harvard's discriminatory policies against earlier generations (to the detriment of Jewish, Asian, Black, and Latino applicants).

fmajid 8y ago
Studies show the grandchildren of Vietnam war draftees still suffer an economic hit 2 generations later, so it’s unsurprising slavery casts a pall to this day. “Diversity” in elite colleges is a scam, essentially rich urban whites throwing poor rural whites under the bus to give themselves a good conscience. Most of the “African-American” candidates have either one white parent of are of Caribbean origin, not the descendants of slaves, and the bonus for them is not means-tested. Don’t expect to find many kids from inner-city ghettoes or the barrio there. It’s easy to get statistics on racial diversity at US universities but getting numbers on socio-economic diversity is like pulling teeth. SFFA’s suggestion to give a bonus to poor students has a lot of merit, but of course it would upset the elite apple cart at Harvard, which is why they resist it so strenuously.
- danmaz74 8y ago
  > of Caribbean origin I'm curious, what would be the rationale behind this?
- zozbot123 8y ago
  > ...are of Caribbean origin, not the descendants of slaves Dude, seriously? Educate yourself, FFS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_British_and_French_Caribbean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_British_and_Fre...
- sp527 8y ago
  It should be noted that if admissions were perfectly race blind and did (rightfully) correct for financial means, you would likely still end up with more poor Jews and Asians in the student body than Blacks and Hispanics. And that is why they don’t do it. Because it still wouldn’t give them the pretty superficial picture of diversity they’re looking for. The uncomfortable truth here is that they’re using a coarse-grained and super messed up attribute (race) to correct for a problem that goes much deeper than pure economic disparities.
gizmo686 8y ago
I agree that legacy should be done away with. However, the class of people who legacy harms is those whose parents did not attend Harvard. The overwhelming majority of White students fall into that class as well, and are just as harmed by legacy admissions as non-White students. Also, as a Jew, I would rather not see people act as if anti-Jewish discrimination is so special that we somehow cannot look to that history for lessons on any issue that is not anti-Jewish discrimination. Be happy that (in this country) the overwhelming majority of people have come to accept that anti-semitism is wrong, and lets leverage that to help other groups. There was a lot of suffering to get that recognition for Jews. There was a lot of suffering to get that recognition for Blacks. Maybe we can short circuit some of the suffering this time around for the next group. [0] [0] Although, frankly, I doubt we will see a turn around in our view of Asians anytime soon. If there is one thing I have learned from American History, it is that anti-Asian sentiments seems to be immune from social pushback for some reason.

natalyarostova 8y ago

I actually agree with you in substance, but the glib 'trigger warning' at the end does yourself no services in convincing others.

sp527 8y ago
Fair enough. Needless to say I have a lot of heavy emotions on this subject.
- natalyarostova 8y ago
  That's understandable. Being discriminated against sucks.