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One of the biggest ways to lift marginalized groups out of poverty would be to provide speech therapy. This needs to be as universal as teaching history, math,

by burfog 8y ago

One of the biggest ways to lift marginalized groups out of poverty would be to provide speech therapy. This needs to be as universal as teaching history, math, and science. We're choosing to leave people with a huge disadvantage when we pretend that dialects aren't a problem that can and should be fixed.

JshWright 8y ago
I think the author of this article says it well... "In fact, Black English is not deficient but alternate. There is no scientific basis for judging Black English grammatical structures as faulty or unclear"
- burfog 8y ago
  Riiight... You could say that of French too. The trouble is, French is very deficient when judged as English. French grammatical structures are faulty and unclear in an English-speaking environment. Likewise for Japanese being judged as Korean. It is deficient, faulty, and unclear. The fact that it is an alternate is unimportant. Japanese is very bad Korean. The point of a language is to communicate. If you can't communicate, you need to fix that.
  - unclenoriega 8y ago
    The problem (IMO) isn't your suggestion that marginalized people be taught to use and understand General American, it's that you characterize speaking Black English as a pathology. It can be important to speak the prestige language if one wants to advance in society, but it's not a medical problem to speak a local dialect. Would you advise an aspiring London barrister from Yorkshire to see a therapist or watch some YouTube videos on RP?
    - krapp 8y ago
      It is odd that English is accepted as having many local dialects... except among black people, who are just too ignorant to speak it properly.
      - LyndsySimon 8y ago
        As a white man with a strong Southern accent - when I don't suppress it, which I do in professional settings - I assure you that looking down on someone because of their dialect is not solely determined by skin color :)
        krapp 8y ago
        Fair enough, but skin color is definitely a factor, particularly where law enforcement is concerned.
- gizmo686 8y ago
  While I wouldn't use the phrase "speech therapy" in this context , I think there is a more charitable interpenetration of burfog's comment. We have no problem teaching Spanish speaking students English, or even constructing entire curriculum around the idea that they are still learning English while being taught. No one involved in that is under the impression that Spanish is inferior, but they recognize that, for people living in this region of the world, English is an important language to know. We have decided that AAVE and "standard" English are the same language, but that is very much a political decision (and far from the most absurd example of different dialects being the same language). However, weather we want to call it a foreign language or not, it is still not the same language that native speakers of standard English speak. Any any speaker of English who plans on interacting significantly with speakers of another dialect will be well served to treat the other dialect as a foreign language and study it appropriately.
- subpixel 8y ago
  That would suggest it's a feature, not a bug. I remain unconvinced.
deleted 8y ago
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by burfog 8y ago

JshWright 8y ago

I think the author of this article says it well... "In fact, Black English is not deficient but alternate. There is no scientific basis for judging Black English grammatical structures as faulty or unclear"

burfog 8y ago
Riiight... You could say that of French too. The trouble is, French is very deficient when judged as English. French grammatical structures are faulty and unclear in an English-speaking environment. Likewise for Japanese being judged as Korean. It is deficient, faulty, and unclear. The fact that it is an alternate is unimportant. Japanese is very bad Korean. The point of a language is to communicate. If you can't communicate, you need to fix that.
- unclenoriega 8y ago
  The problem (IMO) isn't your suggestion that marginalized people be taught to use and understand General American, it's that you characterize speaking Black English as a pathology. It can be important to speak the prestige language if one wants to advance in society, but it's not a medical problem to speak a local dialect. Would you advise an aspiring London barrister from Yorkshire to see a therapist or watch some YouTube videos on RP?
  - krapp 8y ago
    It is odd that English is accepted as having many local dialects... except among black people, who are just too ignorant to speak it properly.
    - LyndsySimon 8y ago
      As a white man with a strong Southern accent - when I don't suppress it, which I do in professional settings - I assure you that looking down on someone because of their dialect is not solely determined by skin color :)
      - krapp 8y ago
        Fair enough, but skin color is definitely a factor, particularly where law enforcement is concerned.
gizmo686 8y ago
While I wouldn't use the phrase "speech therapy" in this context , I think there is a more charitable interpenetration of burfog's comment. We have no problem teaching Spanish speaking students English, or even constructing entire curriculum around the idea that they are still learning English while being taught. No one involved in that is under the impression that Spanish is inferior, but they recognize that, for people living in this region of the world, English is an important language to know. We have decided that AAVE and "standard" English are the same language, but that is very much a political decision (and far from the most absurd example of different dialects being the same language). However, weather we want to call it a foreign language or not, it is still not the same language that native speakers of standard English speak. Any any speaker of English who plans on interacting significantly with speakers of another dialect will be well served to treat the other dialect as a foreign language and study it appropriately.
subpixel 8y ago
That would suggest it's a feature, not a bug. I remain unconvinced.

deleted 8y ago

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