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“Black people, including kids, use Black English alongside standard English rather than exclusively.” Okay, so it’s solved. Since according to the author all b

“Black people, including kids, use Black English alongside standard English rather than exclusively.” Okay, so it’s solved. Since according to the author all black people can communicate in the standard English dialect, I would suggest to use that when speaking with court employees. This is what I do. I do not address police officers as “dog”, for example, and expect 100% positive results. I would say “sir”, which is also in contrast to how I speak to my peers in daily life, despite the fact that I am white.

BoorishBears 8y ago
I didn’t know we had these kinds of unapologetic racists in our midst. From their profile: >I have chronic medical problems and might not always be 100% coherent, sorry Maybe you should go seek some better help my friend.
- subpixel 8y ago
  Without assigning labels, what about their advice falls short in your opinion? The article uses the term “black English” (I might otherwise use the term “slang”) and I think the advice “don’t speak slang to people who, so that you might more likely achieve your own objectives, you ought to be showing utmost respect” is pretty solid.
  - JshWright 8y ago
    The article very specifically addresses the distinction between Black English and "slang". I also strongly disagree with the notion that someone's _rights_ should be tied to whether or not a cop feels they were sufficiently respectful.
    - code_duck 8y ago
      The reality is that as a white person, if I am sufficiently disrespectful to a police officer, I am liable to get beat severely or arrested. In a confrontation with the police, there is a chance that I might be unfairly killed. The issue with the race is that this happens at twice the rate to black people. The issue is NOT that it never happens to white people – is that the rate is disproportionate. My opinion is that police should never kill citizens by choice, and that the issue is really more of a citizen power versus police than white versus black.
    - subpixel 8y ago
      The article mentions that what it calls "Black English" has been compared humorously to slang. I believe there is a lot of room for debate and discussion between mocking a way of speaking on the one hand and designating it a separate language on the other. As for respect. Respect matters because laws are enforced by people. When you're in an exchange with a cop or a judge how things go for you are tied to both the letter of the law _and_ the laws of human nature. We live in meatspace.
  - code_duck 8y ago
    The article delineates the difference between this dialect and slang. That’s kind of a key point. Really, it acts as if people are speaking completely separate languages. So, imagine if I was arrested in Mexico and I could speak English and Spanish, but insisted on speaking English and then complained that the court personnel misunderstood me.
    - gizmo686 8y ago
      Yes. You should absolutely insist on speaking English in that circumstance. Get or let the Mexican court furnish a translator for you.
      - code_duck 8y ago
        Why would that be? I didn’t specify any difference in my skills at speaking English or Spanish. Are you saying there’s an advantage in addressing the court in a foreign language?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
sokoloff 8y ago
> “Why don’t you just give me a lawyer, dog?” That this was not interpreted as a request for a lawyer and (worse) that that interpretation was upheld on appeal is a grave miscarriage of justice, IMO.
- code_duck 8y ago
  Sure, it’s a clear intentional misinterpretation. Probably not the worst miscarriage of justice that occurred in that person’s case. Probably they were arrested for something that shouldn’t have even been a crime in the first place. But the person who said it is also an idiot.
  - unclenoriega 8y ago
    > Probably they were arrested for something that shouldn’t have even been a crime in the first place. I wouldn't say that. > [T]wo juvenile victims told investigators that Warren Demesme, 22, sexually assaulted them. Baddoo said one victim reported that Demesme “would portray the rape as a game, and the child articulated the sexual contact caused her pain.” https://www.theadvocate.com/new_orleans/news/article_1ecdd375-9c45-5aeb-8316-295c864c8a2d.html https://www.theadvocate.com/new_orleans/news/article_1ecdd37...
    - code_duck 8y ago
      “Probably” indicates a likelihood, not a statement about one particular instance. You’re discussing one particular instance. Statistically, very many people arrested for things that I do not believe should be a crime, such as marijuana possession, and that is to what I am referring.
      - sokoloff 8y ago
        Your prior sentence literally ended in "in that person's case". IMO, it takes a significantly tortured reading of your words to interpret them as you suggest above.
PhasmaFelis 8y ago
So it's okay to take away people's rights because they talk funny?
- code_duck 8y ago
  Maybe you could sketch out how you drew that conclusion from what I said?
  - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
    I assume we can agree that, based on the article, a person was mistreated because they spoke in slang. In your comment, you put the blame for that entirely on the speaker. I don't think it's a stretch, therefore, to assume that the police officer is 100% blameless in your mind, and it was okay for them to treat the defendant as they did. If you meant to communicate something else, you didn't do it very clearly.
    - code_duck 8y ago
      Actually, the article delineates the difference between slang and what they (linguists) consider a separate dialect or language related to English. You are maligning the speakers by saying that they “talk funny” or by summing up what I have said as “they talk funny”. According to the article, they speak 2 separate languages. I would suggest addressing police and the courts in the court’s native language. According to the article, again, this is possible for all black people. I feel fairly neutral about police in general. Are they blameless? I really doubt it. Do I know anything else about this case, or does it really matter? No. Not at all.
skh 8y ago
I think it’s clear from the article that the author is does not intend to mean that everyone who speaks Black English also has a command of standard English. It seems to me he was saying that standard English should be taught in schools despite Black English being prominent in some districts. It’s widely recognized that people sometimes prefer to speak in their native tongue for purposes of being accurate. Hence sometimes bilingual Spanish speakers will testify in Spanish despite knowing English. The overarching point of the article is that a person’s native tongue ought not influence whether or not they are deemed guilty. Do you disagree with this point?
- code_duck 8y ago
  That might be the point of the article, but that wasn’t the point that I was discussing. Perhaps you missed my point. I don’t communicate with the legal system using the same language used to communicate with my peers. Why should anyone else expect to?
  - skh 8y ago
    I think it is you who has missed the point. I deal with the legal system in my native language. It happenes to be standard English but I’m not so ethnocentric in my thinking to believe that non native speakers of standard English should be not able to interact with the legal system in their native language.
    - code_duck 8y ago
      Yeah… Then there is this issue of how the author said that all speakers that that dialect can also speak standard English. Maybe you should go back a couple of comments or read the article and check that out.
gizmo686 8y ago
If you are ever in a court that is being conducted in a language which is not your native language, request a translator, regardless of how well you think you know the language. There is simply too much risk of mis-communication. The problem that speakers of Black English (or any other non-standard dialect) is that they can't just get a translator because their native language is "English". As an aside, the fact that AAVE and "standard" English are considered the same language is a political decision, not a linguistic one.
- code_duck 8y ago
  I’m discussing how the author of the article said that every black person who speaks another dialect can also speak standard English. This has been my experience. I don’t speak to court personnel using the same language that I used to speak to people on the street. I speak clearly and precisely because I am aware of the consequences of being misinterpreted.

BoorishBears 8y ago

I didn’t know we had these kinds of unapologetic racists in our midst. From their profile: >I have chronic medical problems and might not always be 100% coherent, sorry Maybe you should go seek some better help my friend.

subpixel 8y ago
Without assigning labels, what about their advice falls short in your opinion? The article uses the term “black English” (I might otherwise use the term “slang”) and I think the advice “don’t speak slang to people who, so that you might more likely achieve your own objectives, you ought to be showing utmost respect” is pretty solid.
- JshWright 8y ago
  The article very specifically addresses the distinction between Black English and "slang". I also strongly disagree with the notion that someone's _rights_ should be tied to whether or not a cop feels they were sufficiently respectful.
  - code_duck 8y ago
    The reality is that as a white person, if I am sufficiently disrespectful to a police officer, I am liable to get beat severely or arrested. In a confrontation with the police, there is a chance that I might be unfairly killed. The issue with the race is that this happens at twice the rate to black people. The issue is NOT that it never happens to white people – is that the rate is disproportionate. My opinion is that police should never kill citizens by choice, and that the issue is really more of a citizen power versus police than white versus black.
  - subpixel 8y ago
    The article mentions that what it calls "Black English" has been compared humorously to slang. I believe there is a lot of room for debate and discussion between mocking a way of speaking on the one hand and designating it a separate language on the other. As for respect. Respect matters because laws are enforced by people. When you're in an exchange with a cop or a judge how things go for you are tied to both the letter of the law _and_ the laws of human nature. We live in meatspace.
- code_duck 8y ago
  The article delineates the difference between this dialect and slang. That’s kind of a key point. Really, it acts as if people are speaking completely separate languages. So, imagine if I was arrested in Mexico and I could speak English and Spanish, but insisted on speaking English and then complained that the court personnel misunderstood me.
  - gizmo686 8y ago
    Yes. You should absolutely insist on speaking English in that circumstance. Get or let the Mexican court furnish a translator for you.
    - code_duck 8y ago
      Why would that be? I didn’t specify any difference in my skills at speaking English or Spanish. Are you saying there’s an advantage in addressing the court in a foreign language?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

sokoloff 8y ago

> “Why don’t you just give me a lawyer, dog?” That this was not interpreted as a request for a lawyer and (worse) that that interpretation was upheld on appeal is a grave miscarriage of justice, IMO.

code_duck 8y ago
Sure, it’s a clear intentional misinterpretation. Probably not the worst miscarriage of justice that occurred in that person’s case. Probably they were arrested for something that shouldn’t have even been a crime in the first place. But the person who said it is also an idiot.
- unclenoriega 8y ago
  > Probably they were arrested for something that shouldn’t have even been a crime in the first place. I wouldn't say that. > [T]wo juvenile victims told investigators that Warren Demesme, 22, sexually assaulted them. Baddoo said one victim reported that Demesme “would portray the rape as a game, and the child articulated the sexual contact caused her pain.” https://www.theadvocate.com/new_orleans/news/article_1ecdd375-9c45-5aeb-8316-295c864c8a2d.html https://www.theadvocate.com/new_orleans/news/article_1ecdd37...
  - code_duck 8y ago
    “Probably” indicates a likelihood, not a statement about one particular instance. You’re discussing one particular instance. Statistically, very many people arrested for things that I do not believe should be a crime, such as marijuana possession, and that is to what I am referring.
    - sokoloff 8y ago
      Your prior sentence literally ended in "in that person's case". IMO, it takes a significantly tortured reading of your words to interpret them as you suggest above.

PhasmaFelis 8y ago

So it's okay to take away people's rights because they talk funny?

code_duck 8y ago
Maybe you could sketch out how you drew that conclusion from what I said?
- PhasmaFelis 8y ago
  I assume we can agree that, based on the article, a person was mistreated because they spoke in slang. In your comment, you put the blame for that entirely on the speaker. I don't think it's a stretch, therefore, to assume that the police officer is 100% blameless in your mind, and it was okay for them to treat the defendant as they did. If you meant to communicate something else, you didn't do it very clearly.
  - code_duck 8y ago
    Actually, the article delineates the difference between slang and what they (linguists) consider a separate dialect or language related to English. You are maligning the speakers by saying that they “talk funny” or by summing up what I have said as “they talk funny”. According to the article, they speak 2 separate languages. I would suggest addressing police and the courts in the court’s native language. According to the article, again, this is possible for all black people. I feel fairly neutral about police in general. Are they blameless? I really doubt it. Do I know anything else about this case, or does it really matter? No. Not at all.

skh 8y ago

I think it’s clear from the article that the author is does not intend to mean that everyone who speaks Black English also has a command of standard English. It seems to me he was saying that standard English should be taught in schools despite Black English being prominent in some districts. It’s widely recognized that people sometimes prefer to speak in their native tongue for purposes of being accurate. Hence sometimes bilingual Spanish speakers will testify in Spanish despite knowing English. The overarching point of the article is that a person’s native tongue ought not influence whether or not they are deemed guilty. Do you disagree with this point?

code_duck 8y ago
That might be the point of the article, but that wasn’t the point that I was discussing. Perhaps you missed my point. I don’t communicate with the legal system using the same language used to communicate with my peers. Why should anyone else expect to?
- skh 8y ago
  I think it is you who has missed the point. I deal with the legal system in my native language. It happenes to be standard English but I’m not so ethnocentric in my thinking to believe that non native speakers of standard English should be not able to interact with the legal system in their native language.
  - code_duck 8y ago
    Yeah… Then there is this issue of how the author said that all speakers that that dialect can also speak standard English. Maybe you should go back a couple of comments or read the article and check that out.

gizmo686 8y ago

If you are ever in a court that is being conducted in a language which is not your native language, request a translator, regardless of how well you think you know the language. There is simply too much risk of mis-communication. The problem that speakers of Black English (or any other non-standard dialect) is that they can't just get a translator because their native language is "English". As an aside, the fact that AAVE and "standard" English are considered the same language is a political decision, not a linguistic one.

code_duck 8y ago
I’m discussing how the author of the article said that every black person who speaks another dialect can also speak standard English. This has been my experience. I don’t speak to court personnel using the same language that I used to speak to people on the street. I speak clearly and precisely because I am aware of the consequences of being misinterpreted.