6 ms·

Closed attitudes about sex lead to more teen pregnancy, less opportunities for women, etc. I don't see where it is beneficial. The arguments for sexual prudishn

Closed attitudes about sex lead to more teen pregnancy, less opportunities for women, etc. I don't see where it is beneficial. The arguments for sexual prudishness always seem to revolve around "cheapening it" with a heavy subtext of expecting women to maintain sexual purity especially. Most of Western Europe is quite progressive about sex, but yet I can't see how that has been a problem for them. While you may have these beliefs about sex, many people do not. It shouldn't be imposed on everyone.

microcolonel 8y ago
> less opportunities for women What is the mechanism of that? I don't understand how it's necessary to expose broader society (rather than just people interested in it) to unavoidable sexual imagery in order to... have women in the workplace?
- lenticular 8y ago
  Sexual control is universally directed primarily towards women. No matter where you are in the world, male heterosexuality is far less restricted (often thought of as "conquest") whereas female sexuality is heavily restricted ("slut"). This gives a backdrop of delegitimizing women's choices over men's. I'm gay, and repressive sexual attitudes did tremendous damage to me in my youth, as I grew up in a conservative area. I don't understand how you can say with a straight face that sexual repression is not associated with homophobia or discrimination against women. I lived it, and so did every other gay or trans person I know. Also, who gets to decide what is appropriate? A few years ago, people commonly argued that gay people on TV isn't appropriate for children, using some variant of your argument. That's considered a reprehensible viewpoint now. The same is currently true of depicting trans people on TV, or accepting the reality that they exist. In 10 years, that will be considered reprehensible. I now live in an area with a more positive view of sexuality, and this carries over to acceptance of homosexuality, gender nonconforming behavior, etc. Sexual repression, empirically, is always linked to devaluing of women and other disadvantaged groups. edit: Openness about sexuality does not translate into acceptance of nonconsensual or harassing sexual behavior, which is what we should all be concerned about. Quite the opposite. Openness encourages victims to come forward, as has become very apparent in the last few years.
  - microcolonel 8y ago
    > Sexual control is universally directed primarily towards women. Is it primary, or is it universal? > I now live in an area with a more positive view of sexuality, and this carries over to acceptance of homosexuality, gender nonconforming behavior, etc. And I live in a society where there is just about every kind of attitude toward any one of those things represented, in every combination you could imagine. Not sure you can draw the kind of crisp black and white distinctions you'd like to, on this topic. If you take a look at more societies than the handful you've encountered, you'll have a hard time mapping your model of social attitudes toward sex and gender roles cleanly to many of them.
- marcus_holmes 8y ago
  sex is treated as something that women give to men, sometimes in exchange for money/influence/drugs/etc. in a truly equal world, with a healthy attitude to sex, female sexual desire would be recognised too, and sex would stop being something that women give to men, and instead be something that two people (of whatever genders) enjoy together.
  - microcolonel 8y ago
    > sex is treated as something that women give to men, sometimes in exchange for money/influence/drugs/etc. Sure, but if that's why, then surely sexual restraint means that women will more often use other mechanisms to get ahead. I don't get the impression that sexual restraint is what leads some women to prostitute themselves in the way you describe. > in a truly equal world, with a healthy attitude to sex, female sexual desire would be recognised too, and sex would stop being something that women give to men, and instead be something that two people (of whatever genders) enjoy together. What exactly makes that attitude healthy (or rather, healthier than a more restrained attitude)? I sincerely doubt there is some yet-undiscovered natural state in which men and women enjoy sex in the same way; it seems to me that women have a greater degree of control, and generally less desire, when it comes to sex. The reason sex is "treated as something that women give to men" is that they are fundamentally in control. Ask yourself why you see Amy Schumer openly talk about how she knowingly raped an incapacitated man who she knew could not consent, and it seems to be interpreted as a comedy piece. There is a fundamental mechanical difference in how sex and sexual relationships work between the sexes, and no amount of libertinism has changed that. I'm generally very confused about what you're trying to say. I asked why lenticular said that a lack of overt sexual imagery in media was denying women opportunities; I find this utterly confusing as a line of reasoning, and nothing I've read here supports it. I get the impression that some here will ascribe every possible positive attribute to libertinism, and every possible negative attribute to restraint; but when it comes to backing up any specific assertion, no supporting argument is provided.

microcolonel 8y ago

> less opportunities for women What is the mechanism of that? I don't understand how it's necessary to expose broader society (rather than just people interested in it) to unavoidable sexual imagery in order to... have women in the workplace?

lenticular 8y ago
Sexual control is universally directed primarily towards women. No matter where you are in the world, male heterosexuality is far less restricted (often thought of as "conquest") whereas female sexuality is heavily restricted ("slut"). This gives a backdrop of delegitimizing women's choices over men's. I'm gay, and repressive sexual attitudes did tremendous damage to me in my youth, as I grew up in a conservative area. I don't understand how you can say with a straight face that sexual repression is not associated with homophobia or discrimination against women. I lived it, and so did every other gay or trans person I know. Also, who gets to decide what is appropriate? A few years ago, people commonly argued that gay people on TV isn't appropriate for children, using some variant of your argument. That's considered a reprehensible viewpoint now. The same is currently true of depicting trans people on TV, or accepting the reality that they exist. In 10 years, that will be considered reprehensible. I now live in an area with a more positive view of sexuality, and this carries over to acceptance of homosexuality, gender nonconforming behavior, etc. Sexual repression, empirically, is always linked to devaluing of women and other disadvantaged groups. edit: Openness about sexuality does not translate into acceptance of nonconsensual or harassing sexual behavior, which is what we should all be concerned about. Quite the opposite. Openness encourages victims to come forward, as has become very apparent in the last few years.
- microcolonel 8y ago
  > Sexual control is universally directed primarily towards women. Is it primary, or is it universal? > I now live in an area with a more positive view of sexuality, and this carries over to acceptance of homosexuality, gender nonconforming behavior, etc. And I live in a society where there is just about every kind of attitude toward any one of those things represented, in every combination you could imagine. Not sure you can draw the kind of crisp black and white distinctions you'd like to, on this topic. If you take a look at more societies than the handful you've encountered, you'll have a hard time mapping your model of social attitudes toward sex and gender roles cleanly to many of them.
marcus_holmes 8y ago
sex is treated as something that women give to men, sometimes in exchange for money/influence/drugs/etc. in a truly equal world, with a healthy attitude to sex, female sexual desire would be recognised too, and sex would stop being something that women give to men, and instead be something that two people (of whatever genders) enjoy together.
- microcolonel 8y ago
  > sex is treated as something that women give to men, sometimes in exchange for money/influence/drugs/etc. Sure, but if that's why, then surely sexual restraint means that women will more often use other mechanisms to get ahead. I don't get the impression that sexual restraint is what leads some women to prostitute themselves in the way you describe. > in a truly equal world, with a healthy attitude to sex, female sexual desire would be recognised too, and sex would stop being something that women give to men, and instead be something that two people (of whatever genders) enjoy together. What exactly makes that attitude healthy (or rather, healthier than a more restrained attitude)? I sincerely doubt there is some yet-undiscovered natural state in which men and women enjoy sex in the same way; it seems to me that women have a greater degree of control, and generally less desire, when it comes to sex. The reason sex is "treated as something that women give to men" is that they are fundamentally in control. Ask yourself why you see Amy Schumer openly talk about how she knowingly raped an incapacitated man who she knew could not consent, and it seems to be interpreted as a comedy piece. There is a fundamental mechanical difference in how sex and sexual relationships work between the sexes, and no amount of libertinism has changed that. I'm generally very confused about what you're trying to say. I asked why lenticular said that a lack of overt sexual imagery in media was denying women opportunities; I find this utterly confusing as a line of reasoning, and nothing I've read here supports it. I get the impression that some here will ascribe every possible positive attribute to libertinism, and every possible negative attribute to restraint; but when it comes to backing up any specific assertion, no supporting argument is provided.