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Those are cultural differences, not genetic ones (for the most part). I think that’s quite a difference as one can adapt over the time span of a couple of gener

Those are cultural differences, not genetic ones (for the most part). I think that’s quite a difference as one can adapt over the time span of a couple of generations (or even immediately by strong willed individuals) while race is much more sticky and impossible to shake once you’re born into it. Case in point, when a Roma family settles down, they can in theory just be another Eastern European family to those who don’t know their background. 28 years since the Berlin wall fell, Western European people are now pretty much used to mingling with Eastern Europeans. It’s the hardcore differences in lifestyle that makes a lot of people afraid of others, and those can change - e.g. see the integration of immigrants from Kosovo. I don’t think Syrians who stay will have a much different fate 20y from now.

whack 8y ago
FWIW, I don't think cultural discrimination is acceptable either. I've met people who don't bat an eyelid when they hear European accents or southern/Boston/new-York accents, but are openly hostile to those speaking African-American vernacular. Similarly for Mexicans speaking Spanish as well. Also, I've never met a Roma person, but it's my understanding that they can trace their genetic ancestry to Asia, and that they look significantly different compared to the average European. So I'm curious as to your comment about it not being a genetic difference, and that they can easily assimilate if they wanted to?
- mason55 8y ago
  What’s the difference between cultural discrimination and constructive criticism? Can you complain that the Saudis don’t (didn’t) let women drive or is that cultural discrimination? Anti-FGM campaigns? I’m being intentionally obtuse but there has to be a line somewhere. Or not and people should be free to argue without fear of the label “cultural discrimination”. FWIW I have no idea what the answer is.
  - door5 8y ago
    It depends whether your criticism is informed and empathetic. Are you criticizing to prove that another group is somehow "lesser" or "other", or are you listening to and supporting activists from within those groups? How informed are you on the issue, etc.
    - marcus_holmes 8y ago
      I've bumped into this recently with SE Asian politics. The West has tried to get SE Asia to be democratic for decades. But SE Asians have, almost uniformly, rejected democracy and opted for variations on monarchies, communist autocracies, military juntas, and "elected" dictators. At what point do we accept that SE Asians don't want to have democratic governments, and just let them do their thing? OR do we never accept that, of any culture, and keep pushing them to be democratic because it's "better"?
    - leetcrew 8y ago
      how do you know which are the "correct" activist groups to support? there are many different groups that could be considered activist in most large countries. if you just pick ones that largely align with Western values, it doesn't seem much better than being uninformed.
      - door5 8y ago
        Look for where their funding comes from. Puppet organizations will often lead you back to U.S. state-funded organizations like the NED or BBG or billionaire-funded NGOs
        leetcrew 8y ago
        sure, it's easy enough to filter out blatant puppet organizations this way, but I'm asking a different question. in pretty much any community you will find different groups of people organizing in good faith to improve it. if they disagree with each other, how do you decide which one to support?
  - whack 8y ago
    > What’s the difference between cultural discrimination and constructive criticism? Can you complain that the Saudis don’t (didn’t) let women drive or is that cultural discrimination? I would argue that individuals should be treated on their own individual merit, and not on the merits of their race/religion/nation/culture. If you meet a Saudi person who doesn't allow his wife/daughter to drive cars, feel free to shun him all you like. If you meet a different Saudi person who does treat his wife and daughters with equality, I would hope that you would give him a fair shake.
- marcus_holmes 8y ago
  the UK is pretty racially diverse. Probably because of the empire (and more recently Europe - lots of Eastern Europeans now). And tends to be less interested in racial differences. So yes, if a Roma family joined mainstream British culture it would be difficult to tell them apart from any other British family.
- m_mueller 8y ago
  Roma can trace heritage back to India, correct? I don’t see the problem - lots of Indian families have integrated quite well in Europe. But I admit I was wrong about comparing to other Eastern Europeans. At the end it’s still a lifestyle/ culture difference that leads to animosities IMO, not anything related to their genes.

whack 8y ago

FWIW, I don't think cultural discrimination is acceptable either. I've met people who don't bat an eyelid when they hear European accents or southern/Boston/new-York accents, but are openly hostile to those speaking African-American vernacular. Similarly for Mexicans speaking Spanish as well. Also, I've never met a Roma person, but it's my understanding that they can trace their genetic ancestry to Asia, and that they look significantly different compared to the average European. So I'm curious as to your comment about it not being a genetic difference, and that they can easily assimilate if they wanted to?

mason55 8y ago
What’s the difference between cultural discrimination and constructive criticism? Can you complain that the Saudis don’t (didn’t) let women drive or is that cultural discrimination? Anti-FGM campaigns? I’m being intentionally obtuse but there has to be a line somewhere. Or not and people should be free to argue without fear of the label “cultural discrimination”. FWIW I have no idea what the answer is.
- door5 8y ago
  It depends whether your criticism is informed and empathetic. Are you criticizing to prove that another group is somehow "lesser" or "other", or are you listening to and supporting activists from within those groups? How informed are you on the issue, etc.
  - marcus_holmes 8y ago
    I've bumped into this recently with SE Asian politics. The West has tried to get SE Asia to be democratic for decades. But SE Asians have, almost uniformly, rejected democracy and opted for variations on monarchies, communist autocracies, military juntas, and "elected" dictators. At what point do we accept that SE Asians don't want to have democratic governments, and just let them do their thing? OR do we never accept that, of any culture, and keep pushing them to be democratic because it's "better"?
  - leetcrew 8y ago
    how do you know which are the "correct" activist groups to support? there are many different groups that could be considered activist in most large countries. if you just pick ones that largely align with Western values, it doesn't seem much better than being uninformed.
    - door5 8y ago
      Look for where their funding comes from. Puppet organizations will often lead you back to U.S. state-funded organizations like the NED or BBG or billionaire-funded NGOs
      - leetcrew 8y ago
        sure, it's easy enough to filter out blatant puppet organizations this way, but I'm asking a different question. in pretty much any community you will find different groups of people organizing in good faith to improve it. if they disagree with each other, how do you decide which one to support?
- whack 8y ago
  > What’s the difference between cultural discrimination and constructive criticism? Can you complain that the Saudis don’t (didn’t) let women drive or is that cultural discrimination? I would argue that individuals should be treated on their own individual merit, and not on the merits of their race/religion/nation/culture. If you meet a Saudi person who doesn't allow his wife/daughter to drive cars, feel free to shun him all you like. If you meet a different Saudi person who does treat his wife and daughters with equality, I would hope that you would give him a fair shake.
marcus_holmes 8y ago
the UK is pretty racially diverse. Probably because of the empire (and more recently Europe - lots of Eastern Europeans now). And tends to be less interested in racial differences. So yes, if a Roma family joined mainstream British culture it would be difficult to tell them apart from any other British family.
m_mueller 8y ago
Roma can trace heritage back to India, correct? I don’t see the problem - lots of Indian families have integrated quite well in Europe. But I admit I was wrong about comparing to other Eastern Europeans. At the end it’s still a lifestyle/ culture difference that leads to animosities IMO, not anything related to their genes.