6 ms·

Recent events highlight an unpleasant scientific practice: ethics dumping

59 points by jkuria 8y ago

nmz787 8y ago
anyone care to pastebin a copy of the text?
- neonate 8y ago
  http://archive.is/nKaVz http://archive.is/nKaVz
gumby 8y ago
At one of my companies we were encouraged by our investors to do Phase I (and some Phase II) clinical trials in the Dominican Republic, Mexico, Angola, and other such places. Back then we did do device studies in Germany because the regulations were at the time quite lax (basically you just needed a German MD to decide it was OK and to actually use the device). They've since tightened up the rules. Interestingly, in the device case, people who were squeamish about doing studies in poor countries with poor IRBs and such were perfectly happy to do the device studies in Germany. Not sure what to make of that.
- effie 8y ago
  Isn't it obvious? Germany is a respected western country, what goes there must be OK, even if not according to other western country's laws. And surely there are sanity checks at place there. Angola, on the other hand, is a poor developing country in third world and that just signals that something nefarious is going on. The participants probably felt doing stuff there would have no such sanity checks and it would also taint their reputation.
  - gumby 8y ago
    > Isn't it obvious? Well isn't it condescending to assume that Angola can't have reasonable safety laws while Germany can? Germany is hardly immune to corruption (as a German speaker I am well aware of this) and that indeed was part of the reason why this loophole (placed there at the behest of German medical device manufacturers) was ultimately removed (thanks, EU!) while plenty of poor countries manage to have non-corrupt governments and reasonable protections in place in particular against the depredations of foreign companies. As it happens Angola this week removed the laws barring same sex relations, making them more liberal than bigger and so-called "more developed" countries like Russia, China, et al.
    - shard972 8y ago
      > As it happens Angola this week removed the laws barring same sex relations, making them more liberal than bigger and so-called "more developed" countries like Russia, China, et al. Liberalism doesn't directly correlate with lack of corruption.
    - pofilat 8y ago
      Few independent observers claim that Russia or China are places with legitimate governments that serve their people well. China is rather well known for its ethics-laundering industry, doing unsafe and polluting manufacturing work for others.
    - effie 8y ago
      Nobody made a superiority judgement, just stating the most probable thinking of those people. Past impressions inform present actions.
    - peteretep 8y ago
      > Well isn't it condescending to assume that Angola can't have reasonable safety laws while Germany can? No. Germany is rich and has a high HDI, both of which correlate with safety laws that would be too expensive in poor countries.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - lisper 8y ago
      > isn't it condescending Perhaps. So? Just because an observation is condescending doesn't mean that it's false.
    - nothrabannosir 8y ago
      I think it was sarcasm to satirise the hypocrisy. “Isn’t it obvious? Black is white.” “Isn’t it obvious? Germany > Angola because.”
- fwip 8y ago
  Doing trials on people who don't have the protection of strong consent laws feels pretty unethical as it's got a good chance of doing direct harm to those people. Testing a device in Germany has only indirect harm, if those substandard devices go on to hurt people later.
scarejunba 8y ago
Of course this has been happening for a while. When I was a child, I recall reading this in the newspaper when it was revealed that Johns Hopkins dodged normal process by testing drugs in India. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1121689/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1121689/ Interesting that you could simply test on people in India without establishing safety on animals first.
- Pharmakon 8y ago
  The history of the Tuskegee syphilis experiment along with others shows that you don’t need to leave home to disregard ethical practices. At home or abroad, the rule is that abusive people and companies will target groups without a voice. It’s the same reason people can be tortured or killed by police and jailers, and the public only pays lip service to reform. The only thing that really changes is who has no voice or power, and then becomes victims.
scarejunba 8y ago
Mostly unrelated but Are there “dark journals”? Ones which will only establish the knowledge validity of something and ignore the ethical standards?
- woodruffw 8y ago
  Ignoring ethical standards compromises the validity of any evidence and resulting claims: if we know that the author is willing to ignore ethical principles, we have no reason to believe that they aren't lying about their data/results. The baby goes out with the bathwater. There are plenty of journals (and websites) that will publish junk research, but that's all it is -- junk.
  - lixtra 8y ago
    > Ignoring ethical standards compromises the validity of any evidence and resulting claims... Unfortunately this logic is flawed. Ethical standards are a moving target not the same as scientific standards (also a moving target). For the validity of research I would be only interested in how far scientific standards are met. To give a current example: a good chunk of scientists think that science should be open access - an ethical standard. They still have no general doubt in the validity of payed journals.
    - daveFNbuck 8y ago
      There is plenty of doubt about the validity of paid journals. That's part of why people want open access. Paid journals distort research because they need to sell exciting results. Negative results and failed replications don't make it into the literature, leading to an over-representation of incorrect positive results.
    - woodruffw 8y ago
      As 'daveFNbuck points out, believing in open access (as I do) does entail an amount of skepticism towards the current journal system -- I do think that the current incentive structure behind journal publishing threatens (if not totally compromises) the results within. Ethical standards are indeed a moving target, and it's the job of applied ethics to determine that target at any given point. This is exactly how it should be -- it gives prior research ethical historicity that we can revisit and evaluate to determine whether our priors are as sound as we think they are.
eye_rack 8y ago
For what it's worth, I've always harbored a creeping suspicion that the 2003 Iraq invasion was really cover for dumping ethics within the context of military research. In a war zone, there's lots of opportunities to answer questions and explore malignant curiosities that cannot be negotiated within the context of all those pesky laws and rights that get in the way of progress. Now, because of Iraq, we know that round-the-clock close air support is the best way to dominate an asymmetric adversary, when applying mechanized armor to an urban scenario, and if it's carried out with drones? Even better! We also know that the cold stare of eyes in the sky can all but eliminate the strategic advantage of hugging civilian populations to the point that thousands can be smoked on the ground, while keeping the cost of friendly personnel down to a number you can count with one hand! And when you're done, and the power vacuum settles out, you can leave the entire region to descend in to a biblical war of technicals, garbage trucks of POW brutality, concubine trade, and refugee overflow frothing over into neighboring countries to the point that it destabilizes half the world, and no one will even raise an eyebrow!
bookofjoe 8y ago
John le Carré's 2001 novel, "The Constant Gardener," described this practice in action nearly two decades ago.
aaron695 8y ago
"Ethics dumping" is a weasel word and I sincerely doubt is actually happening to any extent, if at all. The examples in the article were stopped/got in trouble due to ethics or were not dumps. But I wish it was common, the millions who die each year due to overly convoluted delays in testing and high prices it creates is a travesty. People creating fake issues like "Ethics dumping" are the real villains in this world.
lsiebert 8y ago
Someone should write a scifi story about alien ethics dumping.
tapland 8y ago
I was practicing at a medtech company in high school and the team really wanted to conduct tests in China, since the best product testing would be to shoot live pigs from a cannon into a concrete wall for treatment with the device afterward. To my knowledge it never happened, because adhering to local ethics requirements would be better for seeking investments. But I also think the company went under because of lacking real world results in the limited trials that could be done.
- dasanman 8y ago
  Holy shit dude.
- _Schizotypy 8y ago
  I have to ask, what the hell was the treatment and what was it for exactly?
  - tapland 8y ago
    It was a device for use in trauma patients (car crashes being the most common use case). So that's what they wanted to test, and it is an unsafe procedure for trials, requiring sedation and risking the health of the patient, but possibly increasing positive outcomes in real cases. I don't feel comfortable outing the company.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
empath75 8y ago
This is the dark side of globalism and it’s not just testing, it’s every aspect of capitalism where it touches countries in the developing world. Everything from the food you buy to the clothes you wear is the result of horrific exploitation.

59 points by jkuria 8y ago

nmz787 8y ago

anyone care to pastebin a copy of the text?

neonate 8y ago
http://archive.is/nKaVz http://archive.is/nKaVz

gumby 8y ago

At one of my companies we were encouraged by our investors to do Phase I (and some Phase II) clinical trials in the Dominican Republic, Mexico, Angola, and other such places. Back then we did do device studies in Germany because the regulations were at the time quite lax (basically you just needed a German MD to decide it was OK and to actually use the device). They've since tightened up the rules. Interestingly, in the device case, people who were squeamish about doing studies in poor countries with poor IRBs and such were perfectly happy to do the device studies in Germany. Not sure what to make of that.

effie 8y ago
Isn't it obvious? Germany is a respected western country, what goes there must be OK, even if not according to other western country's laws. And surely there are sanity checks at place there. Angola, on the other hand, is a poor developing country in third world and that just signals that something nefarious is going on. The participants probably felt doing stuff there would have no such sanity checks and it would also taint their reputation.
- gumby 8y ago
  > Isn't it obvious? Well isn't it condescending to assume that Angola can't have reasonable safety laws while Germany can? Germany is hardly immune to corruption (as a German speaker I am well aware of this) and that indeed was part of the reason why this loophole (placed there at the behest of German medical device manufacturers) was ultimately removed (thanks, EU!) while plenty of poor countries manage to have non-corrupt governments and reasonable protections in place in particular against the depredations of foreign companies. As it happens Angola this week removed the laws barring same sex relations, making them more liberal than bigger and so-called "more developed" countries like Russia, China, et al.
  - shard972 8y ago
    > As it happens Angola this week removed the laws barring same sex relations, making them more liberal than bigger and so-called "more developed" countries like Russia, China, et al. Liberalism doesn't directly correlate with lack of corruption.
  - pofilat 8y ago
    Few independent observers claim that Russia or China are places with legitimate governments that serve their people well. China is rather well known for its ethics-laundering industry, doing unsafe and polluting manufacturing work for others.
  - effie 8y ago
    Nobody made a superiority judgement, just stating the most probable thinking of those people. Past impressions inform present actions.
  - peteretep 8y ago
    > Well isn't it condescending to assume that Angola can't have reasonable safety laws while Germany can? No. Germany is rich and has a high HDI, both of which correlate with safety laws that would be too expensive in poor countries.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - lisper 8y ago
    > isn't it condescending Perhaps. So? Just because an observation is condescending doesn't mean that it's false.
  - nothrabannosir 8y ago
    I think it was sarcasm to satirise the hypocrisy. “Isn’t it obvious? Black is white.” “Isn’t it obvious? Germany > Angola because.”
fwip 8y ago
Doing trials on people who don't have the protection of strong consent laws feels pretty unethical as it's got a good chance of doing direct harm to those people. Testing a device in Germany has only indirect harm, if those substandard devices go on to hurt people later.

scarejunba 8y ago

Of course this has been happening for a while. When I was a child, I recall reading this in the newspaper when it was revealed that Johns Hopkins dodged normal process by testing drugs in India. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1121689/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1121689/ Interesting that you could simply test on people in India without establishing safety on animals first.

Pharmakon 8y ago
The history of the Tuskegee syphilis experiment along with others shows that you don’t need to leave home to disregard ethical practices. At home or abroad, the rule is that abusive people and companies will target groups without a voice. It’s the same reason people can be tortured or killed by police and jailers, and the public only pays lip service to reform. The only thing that really changes is who has no voice or power, and then becomes victims.

scarejunba 8y ago

Mostly unrelated but Are there “dark journals”? Ones which will only establish the knowledge validity of something and ignore the ethical standards?

woodruffw 8y ago
Ignoring ethical standards compromises the validity of any evidence and resulting claims: if we know that the author is willing to ignore ethical principles, we have no reason to believe that they aren't lying about their data/results. The baby goes out with the bathwater. There are plenty of journals (and websites) that will publish junk research, but that's all it is -- junk.
- lixtra 8y ago
  > Ignoring ethical standards compromises the validity of any evidence and resulting claims... Unfortunately this logic is flawed. Ethical standards are a moving target not the same as scientific standards (also a moving target). For the validity of research I would be only interested in how far scientific standards are met. To give a current example: a good chunk of scientists think that science should be open access - an ethical standard. They still have no general doubt in the validity of payed journals.
  - daveFNbuck 8y ago
    There is plenty of doubt about the validity of paid journals. That's part of why people want open access. Paid journals distort research because they need to sell exciting results. Negative results and failed replications don't make it into the literature, leading to an over-representation of incorrect positive results.
  - woodruffw 8y ago
    As 'daveFNbuck points out, believing in open access (as I do) does entail an amount of skepticism towards the current journal system -- I do think that the current incentive structure behind journal publishing threatens (if not totally compromises) the results within. Ethical standards are indeed a moving target, and it's the job of applied ethics to determine that target at any given point. This is exactly how it should be -- it gives prior research ethical historicity that we can revisit and evaluate to determine whether our priors are as sound as we think they are.

eye_rack 8y ago

For what it's worth, I've always harbored a creeping suspicion that the 2003 Iraq invasion was really cover for dumping ethics within the context of military research. In a war zone, there's lots of opportunities to answer questions and explore malignant curiosities that cannot be negotiated within the context of all those pesky laws and rights that get in the way of progress. Now, because of Iraq, we know that round-the-clock close air support is the best way to dominate an asymmetric adversary, when applying mechanized armor to an urban scenario, and if it's carried out with drones? Even better! We also know that the cold stare of eyes in the sky can all but eliminate the strategic advantage of hugging civilian populations to the point that thousands can be smoked on the ground, while keeping the cost of friendly personnel down to a number you can count with one hand! And when you're done, and the power vacuum settles out, you can leave the entire region to descend in to a biblical war of technicals, garbage trucks of POW brutality, concubine trade, and refugee overflow frothing over into neighboring countries to the point that it destabilizes half the world, and no one will even raise an eyebrow!

bookofjoe 8y ago

John le Carré's 2001 novel, "The Constant Gardener," described this practice in action nearly two decades ago.

aaron695 8y ago

"Ethics dumping" is a weasel word and I sincerely doubt is actually happening to any extent, if at all. The examples in the article were stopped/got in trouble due to ethics or were not dumps. But I wish it was common, the millions who die each year due to overly convoluted delays in testing and high prices it creates is a travesty. People creating fake issues like "Ethics dumping" are the real villains in this world.

lsiebert 8y ago

Someone should write a scifi story about alien ethics dumping.

tapland 8y ago

I was practicing at a medtech company in high school and the team really wanted to conduct tests in China, since the best product testing would be to shoot live pigs from a cannon into a concrete wall for treatment with the device afterward. To my knowledge it never happened, because adhering to local ethics requirements would be better for seeking investments. But I also think the company went under because of lacking real world results in the limited trials that could be done.

dasanman 8y ago
Holy shit dude.
_Schizotypy 8y ago
I have to ask, what the hell was the treatment and what was it for exactly?
- tapland 8y ago
  It was a device for use in trauma patients (car crashes being the most common use case). So that's what they wanted to test, and it is an unsafe procedure for trials, requiring sedation and risking the health of the patient, but possibly increasing positive outcomes in real cases. I don't feel comfortable outing the company.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

empath75 8y ago

This is the dark side of globalism and it’s not just testing, it’s every aspect of capitalism where it touches countries in the developing world. Everything from the food you buy to the clothes you wear is the result of horrific exploitation.