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A Design Flaw Behind MacBook Pro’s “Stage Light” Effect [video]

260 points by dsego 8y ago

chris_wot 8y ago
I remember that the version of the Macbook Air with an Apple symbol light on the casing. It has the unfortunately flaw that over time the light burns into the screen, it looks like someone has put a large mug of hot coffee on the closed laptop...
- duskwuff 8y ago
  That doesn't make sense. There isn't a dedicated light for the logo in any of Apple's laptops -- what you see is the LCD backlight shining through a cutout in the case. This has been the case ever since they started doing that with the Powerbook G3 (iirc).
  - porphyrogene 8y ago
    The logo was translucent and also allowed light in from the back. There was a logo-shaped burn issue but it was caused by ambient light shining through the logo. At least that's how I understood it. Edit: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3476393 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3476393
    - kolinko 8y ago
      +1. I can imagine someone leaving the laptop in full sunlight, and it burning through the logo - but it feels more like user issue, you don't leave electronics out like that.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- outsidetheparty 8y ago
  I'm using that version of the Macbook Air right now. (Been vaguely wanting to upgrade for a good long while, but am too much in love with the magsafe connector and SD card port.) The light doesn't permanently 'burn in' as you describe, but if there's sunlight shining directly on the back of the laptop I can see a (very faint and blurry) outline of the logo on the screen. Putting a sticker over the logo would fix it, I suppose, though it's rarely noticeable. (If the light's bright enough to shine through the screen, it's also bright enough that I'm squinting into the sun and wanting to sit somewhere else.)
  - chris_wot 8y ago
    Curious where Apple warns you not to do that. Seriously, we have users who this has happened to, and I don't believe they were in full sunlight. They work in an office.
    - outsidetheparty 8y ago
      You had me curious so I did some searching; I did find a few support threads discussing this sort of problem; consensus seems to be that it's not burn-in (which I'd find really surprising: I sit outdoors or by windows and work in bright light as often as possible (seasonal affective disorder yay) so I'd expect if actual screen burn-in was a thing, I'd have experienced it by now.) Instead it's pressure damage: > If you carry laptop around and it's squished between books or whatever, that's how you get that. My first unibody macbook developed this issue. Now I use a hard case. > What I suspect happened here is you had laid something heavy on top of your air so the logo disk in the lid embossed the defuser sheets. ...etc. https://www.ifixit.com/Answers/View/256877/Why+do+I+have+a+circle+in+the+middle+of+my+screen https://www.ifixit.com/Answers/View/256877/Why+do+I+have+a+c... https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/7ph5bi/apple_logo_light_burning_through_display_happens/ https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/7ph5bi/apple_logo_ligh...
hypochondria 8y ago
Previously (374 comments from 10 days ago): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18968940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18968940
m_mueller 8y ago
I was a mac user for 13 years - last year I switched away to Thinkpads. I really hope that the ones making decisions for the new mac mini are in charge of the next macbooks - maybe they become tenable again at some point. After all this, they still haven’t learned with the Air.
- chvid 8y ago
  Would Thinkpad / Lenovo create an extended warranty for an issue like this?
  - sschueller 8y ago
    I think most companies wouldn't have an issue to fix a design defect for free because most laptops can be cheaply serviced. On a Lenovo you can easily replace the keyboard becuase it is not rivited into the main case. You could also replace the display without the entire case.
    - chvid 8y ago
      Beyond what is required by law or contract?
  - dethac 8y ago
    Back in 2014 they issued a recall for batteries... They expanded it in 2015. IIRC it's still valid today if your battery is the original one. IIRC there wasn't any issue, but there was a risk in the design that could pose a safety hazard. They also recalled some devices for a battery enclosure problem again in 2018. Same deal: no issues, but there was a manufacturing defect that could have resulted in an issue. It was a loose screw.
- henripro 8y ago
  I love older thinkpads and have one as myback up/secondary device. However given the reapeated malware issues with Less, I would never purchase a new one.
mishurov 8y ago
Apple consumerist NPC followers will find excuses for it anyway.
macbookcabler 8y ago
I just picked up the latest MacBook Air. I can literally see the display ribbon cables in the hinge area. They do not appear to be under as much tension as the Pro in the iFixit video, but I wonder if my Air will exhibit the same issue at 366 days after purchase...
- kzrdude 8y ago
  Hope it goes well and looking forward to the 366 day report on that. :)
netsharc 8y ago
Man, how is it defensible that they delete forum posts talking about the issue? Same with denying keyboardgate, this firmly puts their products in my do-not-buy list, because they'll even deny being terrible product engineers when their products break and turn your money to paperweight.
- threeseed 8y ago
  Apple never denied the keyboard issues. They offered an extended warranty and fixed the core issue in a subsequent design.
  - whitepoplar 8y ago
    I have the most recent 2018 MacBook Pro and I still get stuck keys.
    - threeseed 8y ago
      Stuck keys are an issue on every laptop if you get something under the mechanism. The problem in the 2016/2017 models was that you couldn't fix the issue because the dust etc was firmly embedded. The 2018 model has a membrane underneath so you should be able to fix the keys with compressed air.
      - kalleboo 8y ago
        The membrane still has holes in it, letting dust get trapped inside the delicate parts. It just reduces the risk of dust getting inside in the first place
      - chatterbeak 8y ago
        I don't remember every having a stuck key on my Lenovo or my Surface.
      - darkpuma 8y ago
        If I ate a sandwich over my old thinkpad and crumbs got under the keys, I'd just push the keys harder to crush the crumbs into dust. Total non-issue for the better part of a decade. It's only when keyboards become thin and delicate that durability becomes a problem.
artursapek 8y ago
Apple's decisions are really unforgivable lately. Soldered on RAM, soldered on SSD, irreplaceable display cables... what the hell ever happened to modular design? How can this be anything but Apple wanting to shut down DIY repair and even third party repair shops? I wonder how much of their revenue is repairs...
- userbinator 8y ago
  I wonder how much of their revenue is repairs... I don't think they repair much, but they'll be certainly happy to sell you a whole new replacement.
heyjudy 8y ago
If you watch Louis Rossmann's channel, who runs a component-level repair shop in NYC and campaigns/ed for Right to Repair, you'd know modern MacBook Pro's were poorly-designed, designed to wear out, and are expensive and difficult/impossible to repair. Memory: soldered in, SSD: soldered in, battery: glued-in in several pieces, board diagrams: proprietary, test tools and utilities: proprietary, service knowledge-base and forums: exclusive, genuine parts: exclusive. Older Macbook Pro were better but still have their issues. I have an A1278 MBP that sleeps spontaneously all the time because, in the palm rest by the HDD bracket, either the Hall effect sensor wore out or the bar above it (ferrous metal or magnet; magnets are around the screen) became too magnetized. Also, the screen hinges must be loosening or self-polishing, so the screen is getting floppier. I'll try tightening the set screws and maybe even Loctite them. https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup
- threeseed 8y ago
  I have taken apart my 2018 MacBook Pro and there is no glue and it's no more difficult to repair than any of the other models. Provided you can get the parts of course. Also the A1278 is at best a 6 year old machine. I would imagine it's pretty normal for there to be some wear/tear issues.
  - userbinator 8y ago
    I have an IBM X60 from 2006, and the only problem it's developed despite heavy (mobile) use for the past decade-and-nearly-half is that it's lost some of the paint on the case around the edges and bottom. A friend's MacBook (the plastic ones of the time) started cracking its case within a year, and shortly after that the HDD failed. Apple has always presented their products as being premium, and their aesthetic isn't bad, but IMHO they're not really as well-built as they claim to be. They are better built than the cheap HPs and Toshibas, however.
    - busterarm 8y ago
      I still have a fully functional Thinkpad 240 from 1999. Runs Linux even. Only thing showing actual wear is the battery. Slow as heck though.
userbinator 8y ago
It seems to me the design flaw may actually be in the material of the ribbon cable itself; Apple has always been using slightly different plastics formulations (presumably for environmental or maybe cost reasons) than other manufacturers, and have had past issues with cracking and such. I'm not sure what the material is, but the black cables they use don't look like regular (Kapton) ribbon cable to me. Ironically, it might be better being thinner, as then it can handle the same bend radius with less strain. Edit: replacing the cable in the top half is very difficult yet probably still possible, judging by what the various Chinese phone repair shops have been able to do with glued-together screens.
newnewpdro 8y ago
Quit buying Apple products already.
- jaabe 8y ago
  And do what? I’ve used Linux as my sole OS for a couple of years and it was a terrible user experience where I spent way too much of my time trying to get things to work. This was before I bought a 4K monitor, so it wasn’t even as intolerable as it would be today. I actually want to like Linux by the way. The philosophy and the fact that you can use it on environmentally sound (and repairable) hardware is exactly what I want. Unfortunately ease of use is more important to me than that. Apple has that. Everything works out of the box, from the shared Callander, notes and reading iMessages across devices to plugging into a 4K monitor and having things just work. I mean, even if you don’t care about the repairable hardware, the surface book is frankly a cooler piece of hardware than a MBP. Sure it’s more expensive and has no thunderbolt port, but it’s really damn sexy. Unfortunately it runs windows and that’s an even worse user experience than Linux. So I buy Apple products, not because I really want to, but because they are the lesser evil when you want unix that just works.
  - black-tea 8y ago
    > Unfortunately ease of use is more important to me than that. Why even mention "environmentally sound" hardware if the only thing you care about is convenience? When it comes time to ask yourself why you didn't do the right thing you already have your excuse: it was just so convenient. No shit.
    - jaabe 8y ago
      I’d like to say you had a fair point, but what is the “right” option? There is a reason I outlined environmental and repairability as two separate things because unfortunately there isn’t always a correlation between the two. It’s sad but sometimes the non-repairable options are actually better for the environment, even if you have to replace them[0]. And this is assuming the repairable option will even last longer, which isn’t always the case. It’s anecdotal but when I bought my 2018 MacBook Pro last October it was to replace my old 2011 MacBook Pro. The old one still works by the way. In a shorter period of just five years I’ve gone through three dells at work. Despite the dells living mainly in docking stations and being repairable two of them are dead. To me it’s a priority list, and you are certainly free to disagree with how I prioritise, but my point was that Apple fits my list better than the other options. https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/reports/greener-electronics-2017/ https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/reports/greener-electronics-2...
bArray 8y ago
This is just awful. I would like to throw my hat into the ring with an anecdotal story that Dell was good to me in the past. It was a few days before the warranty gave out and a printer shorted the USB to 240V, a bang, flash of light and the magic smoke was gone. I contacted them asking whether the USB bus had poly fuses and they told me I had warranty (this was a second hand laptop and I wasn't aware of this). I sent it away, one week later a large number of components (motherboard, USB buses, sound board, webcam, etc) were replaced, as well as the keyboard that I hinted was unreliable. My point is, something that was clearly accident and not a result of their product being faulty, they fixed the device for me with no questions asked. For that, a tip of the beanie and a future customer. I wish more customer-company relationships were like this and I hope that Dell don't change. On a different note, can we please pass laws globally that: 1. Allow for the right to self/3rd party repair - where you can't sign an agreement to waiver those rights 2. Replacement parts at a sane price (markup), especially if the part to be fixed is the result of an engineering design fault 3. Prevent device manufacturers from making the process of dismantling a device a destructive one, i.e using glue, welds, etc 4. Internally used service materials should be freely available with the device (even if proof of ownership is required to access them) in the language of the Country being sold to 5. Increase the warranty for parts that shouldn't break quickly (modern laptops should last for at least 5 years) - i.e. the difference between a battery (expected to wear faster) and a CPU (not expected to wear) 6. Damage markers are not to be used to void warranty (i.e. Apple's water damage markers that can even be triggered by humidity)
- self_awareness 8y ago
  Maybe instead of trying to develop some laws that may or may not help to solve the issue, we will simply stop buying Apple products?
  - blub 8y ago
    I think OP was trying to come up with realistic solutions, not platitudes like "vote with your feet". Laws have been really effective in the past at putting Apple's "heart" in the right place.
willtim 8y ago
From an environmental and ethical standpoint, I find it quite abhorrent how unrepairable these machines are. As iFixit said, this would be much less of an issue if the display cable could actually be changed.
type-2 8y ago
I wanted a macbook pro but then keyboard issues stopped me. I was absloutely sure I would buy the new air, but I had seen some youtube videos where some keys would behave abnormally. So I'm still with my old air. Old one has served me well, and I guess I will just have to do without the retina display.
- deleted 8y ago
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self_awareness 8y ago
There are lots of laptops which have better price/quality ratio than MacBooks. HP ZBook is one example, there are of course more. I've bought my previous HP EliteBook 6 years ago which was already in used condition, had better performance than MacBooks for fraction of their price. I had to switch to a newer HP model only because I've needed more than 8GB of RAM. Some EliteBook/ZBook models have 2 slots for hard disks plus a DVD tray, which can be replaced to 3rd HDD slot. They can be plugged to a docking station that give them plenty of ports, even old ones like LPT or PS/2 should anyone need them. I really see no benefit of using a MacBookPro with 2 multifunction ports that requires buying expensive cable converters. Enterprise-graded laptops (like EliteBooks) often allow upgrading the graphics card inside the laptop, because they often use the MXM slot. I won't even mention the fact that RAM is never soldered in and can be replaced / extended if needed. Keyboard is changable, so if a key will be damaged, user can buy a replacement keyboard and switch it after unscrewing 3 or 4 screws. Bought a laptop from Scandinavia? You can change the keyboard to your local one after buying it for $25. Apple products quality is good, but they're overpriced to a level of ridicule.
- dingo_bat 8y ago
  Anecdote about elitebook repairability. I cracked the screen on my 840 g1. Went to service center. They replaced the screen in 20 minutes. Try doing that on a MacBook which has glue everywhere and probably requires you to replace half a dozen unrelated components along with the screen.
- zubiaur 8y ago
  Not to mention that the service manuals are public and very well written. The laptops are made to be serviceable. Not that one may need to, as the standard warranty is 3 years, on-site, worldwide. I was issued an elitebook at work. Liked it so much I bought my own, got stolen, bought a zbook. I cannot recomend them enough.
  - dethac 8y ago
    I love the service manuals from Dell/HP/Lenovo! Examples: Lenovo P52 hardware maintenance manual: https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/tp_p52_hmm_en.pdf https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/tp_p52_hmm_en... Dell XPS15 service manual: https://topics-cdn.dell.com/pdf/xps-15-9560-laptop_setup-guide_en-us.pdf https://topics-cdn.dell.com/pdf/xps-15-9560-laptop_setup-gui... HP ZBook 15 G2 maintenance and service guide: http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c04493862 http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c04493862 They're well-written and easy to follow. It's great. All of these are public and freely available on the website of the manufacturer. They're also in PDF format (or similar) and can be opened easily in full in a browser.
xhruso00 8y ago
This thing needs more exposure. Apple fix your reputation!
dschuetz 8y ago
The recent Macbook Pro's models are beginning to sound synonymous to "design flaw". How can such a super expensive highly sophisticated computer be unreliable that much. I guess that Apple now has hit the level-of-integration wall.
- nicoburns 8y ago
  Yeah, it makes all of apples marketing about being environmentally friendly seem pretty disingenuous.
skilled 8y ago
The Pro I'm using right now is the 15" 2016 model, bought it brand new off the shelf, and had used several other models years prior to purchasing this one. After less than 2 years of usage, the keyboard has hardly any buttons left that I haven't had to take out and clean out, and as a result -- break the clippings that hold them together. There are also strange cracks below the screen area which makes me think the fabric is much cheaper this time around. And this whole touch bar thing... what a waste of my time and money. Absolutely unnecessary and horrendous.
neya 8y ago
Everybody makes mistakes, and that's fine. The issue itself can be forgiven for a technical design flaw. BUT, what is NOT fine is trying to censor customers who have paid a lot of money for these products, trying to voice their concerns. There is simply NO excuse for doing that. I'm absolutely disgusted by how anyone can delete forum posts that have not violated forum rules simply for exposing the company's design fault. Why have an open forum in the first place then? I can't believe what the morale amongst the Apple employees running these forums must be whose day job is to shut the voices of these customers on no valid basis. They probably got their orders higher up in their chain. Absolutely appalling. I will NEVER recommend Apple products to anyone around me although I'm already invested with almost all of their computer products.
- deleted 8y ago
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- adetrest 8y ago
  This has been going on with Apple for as far as I can remember. Apple puts out a new product, a significant number of people are affected by what seems to be a manufacturing defect, Apple suppresses mentions of it as much as they can, and a year or two later, they offer some kind of a remedy (usually free repairs) to whoever didn't rage sell or return their defective product. And because their machines are barely repairable, users can rarely fix the issue themselves. This seems to work well for them, people keep clamouring for more overpriced apple hardware and are happy to run on Apple 's treadmill to buy the new iteration every year or two, while running the risk of getting a lemon yet again. So I'm guessing that's a valid strategic decision for Apple and that's why it continues unabated.
xfitm3 8y ago
I wish I could get away from Apple products. I use macbooks. The display is great and I do like that macos typically just works. No futzing. I'm on iOS because I trust Android less. It's the lesser of two evils, unfortunately.
- sneak 8y ago
  I love apple hardware and still have a $5000 latest-gen laptop from them and haven’t had any of the commonly described problems of the last half-dozen years... but I still find myself using my 16gb Pixelbook at least 5x more than my touchbar retina MBP while on the road. Something about the case, the keyboard, the aspect ratio... also ChromeOS is secure like iOS, and can run Real Linux in a VM. It’s an excellent machine. The only thing I super miss is iMessage and Facetime.
  - gst 8y ago
    I would really love to buy a Pixelbook (or another Chromebook) because I really like the software stack. But the fact that Google never updates the kernel on those things (you're stuck with whatever kernel version was on it when you initially purchased it) is a major reason for me to not get one. On my Linux laptop I can always run the latest software. On my Macbook Apple will stop to provide software updates at some point, but in practice the hardware is probably going to die before that anyway. On a Chromebook parts of the software stack are never going to be updated. And while most of the users probably don't care about the kernel version itself, a lot of Chrome OS features are dependent on the kernel version: with an older version you're going to miss some features (such as being able to run Linux apps), although the hardware itself would be capable of supporting them.
    - sneak 8y ago
      I don’t know the kernel versions on my phone, my Pixelbook, or my rMBP. They are all up to date from the vendors. I don’t understand this argument.
      - 8y ago
bertil 8y ago
“Stage light”! Thank you! I’ve been struggling to find help on that one. I‘ve had that problem on a lot of my MacBook; I’d say most of the models 2012-2015. (I haven’t upgraded since.) I’m happy to pay for repairs: I just did on my power cable, the second time for that model, roughly every two years. Most of the time, I notice the problem at the peak of Summer, when I’ve been working like crazy, and internal temperature is likely far from bounds. My biggest issue isn't design flaws (yes, you would expect fewer for a machine at that price) but findability. There is a ton of help online but it’s useless if I don’t know how to describe it in a search engine. I can’t take a screen capture; photos don’t show it well. Given the patterned look of the problem, the fact that I had it on several machines, I knew it was something explainable. I simply could not. Because it’s intermittent, bringing it to the Genius Bar is unhelpful. If relevant posts are being deleted, that’s horrible. If Apple wants the problem (and the independent repairmen) to go away, offer a high-production description of the problem on your Help page; if you really feel the need to add some scaremongering that it’s too high-tech for independent shops to deal with it, but give that symptom a name.
cced 8y ago
I am currently having issues with my 2018 Touchbar. The display has these quick, thin lines which flicker and appear. The anomalies are lines and checkered patterns composed of many different colours which appear for much less than a second and disappear quickly thereafter. I should note that the checkered patterns are across the whole display and uniform in colour, typically a shade of white or grey. I have sent my Macbook Pro for repair three times now. Apple has replaced the board and display (as well as the keyboard for a different issue with the “E” key double-typing) and the issues are still present. Apple told me to wait for a software update. I bought a 2011 Macbook Air which I still use today. What are the odds that my 2018 laptop serves me until 2025? Are the days of high resale values for Macs over?
consto 8y ago
Meanwhile the hinge in my £600 Lenovo ideapad broke after 4 years of carrying it to university pretty much everyday. After a quick phone call they agreed to fix it free of charge (including return postage to Germany). This was because Lenovo had independently determined that my laptop model suffered from weak hinges. A year on, I am typing on that very same laptop. It is starting to show its age and its price. And you know what? When I do finally replace it, it is probably going to be another Lenovo. That is great customer service. Meanwhile the richest company in the world fails to acknowledge a significant design flaw in their expensive, "Pro" laptop. Really, they should be willing, if not eager to replace the screens in every affected laptop free of charge. A laptop that fails after opening and closing the lid for a year or two is defective. There is should be no doubt about that. I don't know how the laws stand in the US (it probably varies state by state), but in the UK with the 2015 Consumer Rights Act, customers have potentially up to five or six years to make a claim irrespective of warranty: https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-...
- consto 8y ago
  It is probably worth noting I purchased the laptop from a major computer retailer sans extended warranty.
  - jorvi 8y ago
    The problem is that anecdotes are not data. On the internet Apple stores are ‘famous’ for giving people the newest model MacBook Pro or iPhone in trade for an old model because their old model has some obscure specific problem that can’t readily be fixed. Or someone has had their crackedscreen replaced free of charge. However, 99% of these things happen only in US Apple stores. Geniuses in the Apple stores in Europe would laugh you out of the store if you asked for similar treatment, and would’ve told you to just wait for a few days until the replacement part / device has arrived. This leads to contentious discussions and flame wars about Apple having alternatively crap or amazing service. The same is probably true for the majority of manufacturers: some people get amazing service whilst others get dicked around. Sometimes it depends on geography. Sometimes the customer service agent was grumpy (or happy!) that day. You simply cannot base your purchase on these stories.
vbuwivbiu 8y ago
Are there any other manufacturers of metal laptops ? Seems like there are no competing metal-bodied laptops with a good centrally-mounted trackpad.
- sschueller 8y ago
  Why does your laptop need to be out of metal? I would think features such as performance, battery live, etc. would be most important and not what material it is made out of.
  - zootam 8y ago
    it feels nice
    - artursapek 8y ago
      This is the gist of what Apple's customers are after: luxury, vanity, fashion.
      - wyclif 8y ago
        Aesthetics and good design are not mere vanity.
        artursapek 8y ago
        They are when they take top priority. Also: "design is how it works."
- imandride 8y ago
  Microsoft has the Surface book which has been fabulous from the day I bought it.
ksec 8y ago
Keyboard ( 2018 3rd Generation Butterfly keyboard Still have the same issues ) Now the hinge, or Flexcable. Thunderbolt 3 / USB Port frying. Just what more to come from these 2016+ MacBook Pro TouchBar. I am typing this on a 2015 MacBook Pro with AppleCare running out next year. Not entirely sure what happens if this laptop have problem. I surely don't want any of the current MBP.
exabrial 8y ago
Absolutely fascinating analysis. Makes the hardware engineers at Apple look like rookies.
exabrial 8y ago
What bothers me about Apple [since 2013] is the showboating about environmentalism in their corporate marketing, but the complete disregard for such things in their designs. Their designs since 2014 have been the least environmentally friendly out of any company; encouraging consumers to throw heavy metals into the ecosystem without the slightest hope of repair. The 2012 Mac Mini was the same chassis as the 2014 but the repairability level is next to nil. The same story is on the current line of MacBooks. E-Waste is the largest and most harmful stream of consumer waste an Apple is leading the way. It doesn't matter how many of your data centers are running on solar panels if all of that energy is being used to destroy the environment.
- AHTERIX5000 8y ago
  I can't take any of that environmentalism seriously as long as they keep manufacturing simply badly designed charger/lightning cables.
  - userbinator 8y ago
    "But we use PVC-free plastics!!!!11" It reminds me a bit about the whole "biodegradable" movement. Instead of making things that essentially destroy themselves after a short time, how about simply making things last longer and be more durable? Of course that would reduce their ability to keep selling you new products. It's quite a genius idea: making things that self-destruct but are "environmentally friendly" means they get both planned obolescence and to advertise the fact that they're "environmentally conscious"...
- jacobolus 8y ago
  Apple will collect any of their devices for recycling in most countries, https://www.apple.com/recycling/nationalservices/ https://www.apple.com/recycling/nationalservices/ From what I understand they built special-purpose robots to disassemble the past several phone versions and recover most of the content. I imagine they can recover the glass and frame from laptops; not sure what happens to the microchips. It would be interesting to see some data about how long a typical device from each manufacturer continues to see active use, and how often they get repaired. I am skeptical that e.g. the typical consumer-owned Dell/Asus/etc. laptop stays around any longer than typical Apple laptop. Anecdotally I know a bunch of people whose PC laptops were pieces of junk when they bought them, and didn’t last more than a couple years before they threw them out for a new model, and also some people who mostly buy used 3–4 year old Apple hardware.
mistersquid 8y ago
(Disclosure: I own a 2017 MacBook Pro with Touch Bar whose moving parts have not had any problem but whose sound/speakers [technically moving?] has been sent for warranty repairs twice.) Another way of looking at the Touch Bar MacBook Pros is that the design of their moving parts is so flawed the entire product could probably be categorized as defective. This is unacceptable and made even worse by their SOP of removing posts that expose them to liability. Apple has not had hardware problems like this since the Sculley years and I'm very worried things will get worse for their general-purpose computing devices before they get better. (iPhones, for now, do not seem to have the same show-stopping usability issues.) EDIT: add missing conjunction to first sentence. Replace closing parenthesis with square bracket.
CommanderData 8y ago
I convinced myself that Mac was the best laptop to buy in 2015 after comparing all available options. The design, beautiful. Technology unmatched at the time, Magsafe was genius, Retina display and build quality fantastic. I was soon to be an Apple fan boy and decided to buy the next model of MBP, hoping for just minor improvements on CPU RAM etc. I stopped myself when I saw 2016 MBP. I take Apple negativity with a lot of salt but even for me, it seems Apple has compromised Mac's quality year on year in so many ways. I still await.
rock_artist 8y ago
Don't worry. With Tim's money driven approach we might see macOS XR on Lenovo targeting the Chinese market
makecheck 8y ago
Wouldn’t it be great if there were compartmentalized laptop designs, with standard-sized places to snap in whatever accompanying hardware that you want? You can essentially plug a desktop computer into whatever keyboard, mouse/trackpad and display that you want; or at the very least, you have a lot of options. Why, in modern laptops with some of the most advanced industrial designs ever, is the entire experience now a pain in the neck? A significant number of annoyances with modern laptops are not in the computing itself but in the surrounding components that are just too damned unreliable. What’s worse, these surrounding components have an entirely different useful lifetime than the interior. I want a Mac laptop but I want to be able to “slide in” $MODERN_MAC_MOTHERBOARD under an existing robust frame that has whatever keyboard/trackpad I want. This could well include a frame that isn’t broken yet from a previous generation, and would definitely exclude unwanted “innovations” like Touch Bars. I want to slide in new batteries. I want to unhook the entire top display and replace it with a new generation of display. And if repair is required, I want to be able to go into a store and borrow a temporary display module (say) that I can slide in to my own laptop, while mailing in the broken display only. I have a really hard time believing that there are any technical reasons not to design laptops with this kind of flexibility.
- gumby 8y ago
  It adds a lot of affordances and interface requirements that add the cost for everyone and more opportunities for something to go wrong.
m0zg 8y ago
Apple just wants to sell you AppleCare I think. Joke's on them, though, my ThinkPad X1 is still going strong after 4 years of heavy use. I'm otherwise in the Apple ecosystem, I have the latest iPad Pro, iPhone 8 and Apple Watch 4. But $3K for a laptop that doesn't have esc key and craps out if I drop a bredcrumb on it or _open the hinge_? Give me a break.

260 points by dsego 8y ago

I remember that the version of the Macbook Air with an Apple symbol light on the casing. It has the unfortunately flaw that over time the light burns into the screen, it looks like someone has put a large mug of hot coffee on the closed laptop...

duskwuff 8y ago
That doesn't make sense. There isn't a dedicated light for the logo in any of Apple's laptops -- what you see is the LCD backlight shining through a cutout in the case. This has been the case ever since they started doing that with the Powerbook G3 (iirc).
- porphyrogene 8y ago
  The logo was translucent and also allowed light in from the back. There was a logo-shaped burn issue but it was caused by ambient light shining through the logo. At least that's how I understood it. Edit: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3476393 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3476393
  - kolinko 8y ago
    +1. I can imagine someone leaving the laptop in full sunlight, and it burning through the logo - but it feels more like user issue, you don't leave electronics out like that.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
outsidetheparty 8y ago
I'm using that version of the Macbook Air right now. (Been vaguely wanting to upgrade for a good long while, but am too much in love with the magsafe connector and SD card port.) The light doesn't permanently 'burn in' as you describe, but if there's sunlight shining directly on the back of the laptop I can see a (very faint and blurry) outline of the logo on the screen. Putting a sticker over the logo would fix it, I suppose, though it's rarely noticeable. (If the light's bright enough to shine through the screen, it's also bright enough that I'm squinting into the sun and wanting to sit somewhere else.)
- chris_wot 8y ago
  Curious where Apple warns you not to do that. Seriously, we have users who this has happened to, and I don't believe they were in full sunlight. They work in an office.
  - outsidetheparty 8y ago
    You had me curious so I did some searching; I did find a few support threads discussing this sort of problem; consensus seems to be that it's not burn-in (which I'd find really surprising: I sit outdoors or by windows and work in bright light as often as possible (seasonal affective disorder yay) so I'd expect if actual screen burn-in was a thing, I'd have experienced it by now.) Instead it's pressure damage: > If you carry laptop around and it's squished between books or whatever, that's how you get that. My first unibody macbook developed this issue. Now I use a hard case. > What I suspect happened here is you had laid something heavy on top of your air so the logo disk in the lid embossed the defuser sheets. ...etc. https://www.ifixit.com/Answers/View/256877/Why+do+I+have+a+circle+in+the+middle+of+my+screen https://www.ifixit.com/Answers/View/256877/Why+do+I+have+a+c... https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/7ph5bi/apple_logo_light_burning_through_display_happens/ https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/7ph5bi/apple_logo_ligh...

hypochondria 8y ago

Previously (374 comments from 10 days ago): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18968940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18968940

m_mueller 8y ago

I was a mac user for 13 years - last year I switched away to Thinkpads. I really hope that the ones making decisions for the new mac mini are in charge of the next macbooks - maybe they become tenable again at some point. After all this, they still haven’t learned with the Air.

chvid 8y ago
Would Thinkpad / Lenovo create an extended warranty for an issue like this?
- sschueller 8y ago
  I think most companies wouldn't have an issue to fix a design defect for free because most laptops can be cheaply serviced. On a Lenovo you can easily replace the keyboard becuase it is not rivited into the main case. You could also replace the display without the entire case.
  - chvid 8y ago
    Beyond what is required by law or contract?
- dethac 8y ago
  Back in 2014 they issued a recall for batteries... They expanded it in 2015. IIRC it's still valid today if your battery is the original one. IIRC there wasn't any issue, but there was a risk in the design that could pose a safety hazard. They also recalled some devices for a battery enclosure problem again in 2018. Same deal: no issues, but there was a manufacturing defect that could have resulted in an issue. It was a loose screw.
henripro 8y ago
I love older thinkpads and have one as myback up/secondary device. However given the reapeated malware issues with Less, I would never purchase a new one.

mishurov 8y ago

Apple consumerist NPC followers will find excuses for it anyway.

macbookcabler 8y ago

I just picked up the latest MacBook Air. I can literally see the display ribbon cables in the hinge area. They do not appear to be under as much tension as the Pro in the iFixit video, but I wonder if my Air will exhibit the same issue at 366 days after purchase...

kzrdude 8y ago
Hope it goes well and looking forward to the 366 day report on that. :)

netsharc 8y ago

Man, how is it defensible that they delete forum posts talking about the issue? Same with denying keyboardgate, this firmly puts their products in my do-not-buy list, because they'll even deny being terrible product engineers when their products break and turn your money to paperweight.

threeseed 8y ago
Apple never denied the keyboard issues. They offered an extended warranty and fixed the core issue in a subsequent design.
- whitepoplar 8y ago
  I have the most recent 2018 MacBook Pro and I still get stuck keys.
  - threeseed 8y ago
    Stuck keys are an issue on every laptop if you get something under the mechanism. The problem in the 2016/2017 models was that you couldn't fix the issue because the dust etc was firmly embedded. The 2018 model has a membrane underneath so you should be able to fix the keys with compressed air.
    - kalleboo 8y ago
      The membrane still has holes in it, letting dust get trapped inside the delicate parts. It just reduces the risk of dust getting inside in the first place
    - chatterbeak 8y ago
      I don't remember every having a stuck key on my Lenovo or my Surface.
    - darkpuma 8y ago
      If I ate a sandwich over my old thinkpad and crumbs got under the keys, I'd just push the keys harder to crush the crumbs into dust. Total non-issue for the better part of a decade. It's only when keyboards become thin and delicate that durability becomes a problem.

artursapek 8y ago

Apple's decisions are really unforgivable lately. Soldered on RAM, soldered on SSD, irreplaceable display cables... what the hell ever happened to modular design? How can this be anything but Apple wanting to shut down DIY repair and even third party repair shops? I wonder how much of their revenue is repairs...

userbinator 8y ago
I wonder how much of their revenue is repairs... I don't think they repair much, but they'll be certainly happy to sell you a whole new replacement.

heyjudy 8y ago

If you watch Louis Rossmann's channel, who runs a component-level repair shop in NYC and campaigns/ed for Right to Repair, you'd know modern MacBook Pro's were poorly-designed, designed to wear out, and are expensive and difficult/impossible to repair. Memory: soldered in, SSD: soldered in, battery: glued-in in several pieces, board diagrams: proprietary, test tools and utilities: proprietary, service knowledge-base and forums: exclusive, genuine parts: exclusive. Older Macbook Pro were better but still have their issues. I have an A1278 MBP that sleeps spontaneously all the time because, in the palm rest by the HDD bracket, either the Hall effect sensor wore out or the bar above it (ferrous metal or magnet; magnets are around the screen) became too magnetized. Also, the screen hinges must be loosening or self-polishing, so the screen is getting floppier. I'll try tightening the set screws and maybe even Loctite them. https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup

threeseed 8y ago
I have taken apart my 2018 MacBook Pro and there is no glue and it's no more difficult to repair than any of the other models. Provided you can get the parts of course. Also the A1278 is at best a 6 year old machine. I would imagine it's pretty normal for there to be some wear/tear issues.
- userbinator 8y ago
  I have an IBM X60 from 2006, and the only problem it's developed despite heavy (mobile) use for the past decade-and-nearly-half is that it's lost some of the paint on the case around the edges and bottom. A friend's MacBook (the plastic ones of the time) started cracking its case within a year, and shortly after that the HDD failed. Apple has always presented their products as being premium, and their aesthetic isn't bad, but IMHO they're not really as well-built as they claim to be. They are better built than the cheap HPs and Toshibas, however.
  - busterarm 8y ago
    I still have a fully functional Thinkpad 240 from 1999. Runs Linux even. Only thing showing actual wear is the battery. Slow as heck though.

userbinator 8y ago

It seems to me the design flaw may actually be in the material of the ribbon cable itself; Apple has always been using slightly different plastics formulations (presumably for environmental or maybe cost reasons) than other manufacturers, and have had past issues with cracking and such. I'm not sure what the material is, but the black cables they use don't look like regular (Kapton) ribbon cable to me. Ironically, it might be better being thinner, as then it can handle the same bend radius with less strain. Edit: replacing the cable in the top half is very difficult yet probably still possible, judging by what the various Chinese phone repair shops have been able to do with glued-together screens.

newnewpdro 8y ago

Quit buying Apple products already.

jaabe 8y ago
And do what? I’ve used Linux as my sole OS for a couple of years and it was a terrible user experience where I spent way too much of my time trying to get things to work. This was before I bought a 4K monitor, so it wasn’t even as intolerable as it would be today. I actually want to like Linux by the way. The philosophy and the fact that you can use it on environmentally sound (and repairable) hardware is exactly what I want. Unfortunately ease of use is more important to me than that. Apple has that. Everything works out of the box, from the shared Callander, notes and reading iMessages across devices to plugging into a 4K monitor and having things just work. I mean, even if you don’t care about the repairable hardware, the surface book is frankly a cooler piece of hardware than a MBP. Sure it’s more expensive and has no thunderbolt port, but it’s really damn sexy. Unfortunately it runs windows and that’s an even worse user experience than Linux. So I buy Apple products, not because I really want to, but because they are the lesser evil when you want unix that just works.
- black-tea 8y ago
  > Unfortunately ease of use is more important to me than that. Why even mention "environmentally sound" hardware if the only thing you care about is convenience? When it comes time to ask yourself why you didn't do the right thing you already have your excuse: it was just so convenient. No shit.
  - jaabe 8y ago
    I’d like to say you had a fair point, but what is the “right” option? There is a reason I outlined environmental and repairability as two separate things because unfortunately there isn’t always a correlation between the two. It’s sad but sometimes the non-repairable options are actually better for the environment, even if you have to replace them[0]. And this is assuming the repairable option will even last longer, which isn’t always the case. It’s anecdotal but when I bought my 2018 MacBook Pro last October it was to replace my old 2011 MacBook Pro. The old one still works by the way. In a shorter period of just five years I’ve gone through three dells at work. Despite the dells living mainly in docking stations and being repairable two of them are dead. To me it’s a priority list, and you are certainly free to disagree with how I prioritise, but my point was that Apple fits my list better than the other options. https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/reports/greener-electronics-2017/ https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/reports/greener-electronics-2...

bArray 8y ago

This is just awful. I would like to throw my hat into the ring with an anecdotal story that Dell was good to me in the past. It was a few days before the warranty gave out and a printer shorted the USB to 240V, a bang, flash of light and the magic smoke was gone. I contacted them asking whether the USB bus had poly fuses and they told me I had warranty (this was a second hand laptop and I wasn't aware of this). I sent it away, one week later a large number of components (motherboard, USB buses, sound board, webcam, etc) were replaced, as well as the keyboard that I hinted was unreliable. My point is, something that was clearly accident and not a result of their product being faulty, they fixed the device for me with no questions asked. For that, a tip of the beanie and a future customer. I wish more customer-company relationships were like this and I hope that Dell don't change. On a different note, can we please pass laws globally that: 1. Allow for the right to self/3rd party repair - where you can't sign an agreement to waiver those rights 2. Replacement parts at a sane price (markup), especially if the part to be fixed is the result of an engineering design fault 3. Prevent device manufacturers from making the process of dismantling a device a destructive one, i.e using glue, welds, etc 4. Internally used service materials should be freely available with the device (even if proof of ownership is required to access them) in the language of the Country being sold to 5. Increase the warranty for parts that shouldn't break quickly (modern laptops should last for at least 5 years) - i.e. the difference between a battery (expected to wear faster) and a CPU (not expected to wear) 6. Damage markers are not to be used to void warranty (i.e. Apple's water damage markers that can even be triggered by humidity)

self_awareness 8y ago
Maybe instead of trying to develop some laws that may or may not help to solve the issue, we will simply stop buying Apple products?
- blub 8y ago
  I think OP was trying to come up with realistic solutions, not platitudes like "vote with your feet". Laws have been really effective in the past at putting Apple's "heart" in the right place.

willtim 8y ago

From an environmental and ethical standpoint, I find it quite abhorrent how unrepairable these machines are. As iFixit said, this would be much less of an issue if the display cable could actually be changed.

type-2 8y ago

I wanted a macbook pro but then keyboard issues stopped me. I was absloutely sure I would buy the new air, but I had seen some youtube videos where some keys would behave abnormally. So I'm still with my old air. Old one has served me well, and I guess I will just have to do without the retina display.

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self_awareness 8y ago

There are lots of laptops which have better price/quality ratio than MacBooks. HP ZBook is one example, there are of course more. I've bought my previous HP EliteBook 6 years ago which was already in used condition, had better performance than MacBooks for fraction of their price. I had to switch to a newer HP model only because I've needed more than 8GB of RAM. Some EliteBook/ZBook models have 2 slots for hard disks plus a DVD tray, which can be replaced to 3rd HDD slot. They can be plugged to a docking station that give them plenty of ports, even old ones like LPT or PS/2 should anyone need them. I really see no benefit of using a MacBookPro with 2 multifunction ports that requires buying expensive cable converters. Enterprise-graded laptops (like EliteBooks) often allow upgrading the graphics card inside the laptop, because they often use the MXM slot. I won't even mention the fact that RAM is never soldered in and can be replaced / extended if needed. Keyboard is changable, so if a key will be damaged, user can buy a replacement keyboard and switch it after unscrewing 3 or 4 screws. Bought a laptop from Scandinavia? You can change the keyboard to your local one after buying it for $25. Apple products quality is good, but they're overpriced to a level of ridicule.

dingo_bat 8y ago
Anecdote about elitebook repairability. I cracked the screen on my 840 g1. Went to service center. They replaced the screen in 20 minutes. Try doing that on a MacBook which has glue everywhere and probably requires you to replace half a dozen unrelated components along with the screen.
zubiaur 8y ago
Not to mention that the service manuals are public and very well written. The laptops are made to be serviceable. Not that one may need to, as the standard warranty is 3 years, on-site, worldwide. I was issued an elitebook at work. Liked it so much I bought my own, got stolen, bought a zbook. I cannot recomend them enough.
- dethac 8y ago
  I love the service manuals from Dell/HP/Lenovo! Examples: Lenovo P52 hardware maintenance manual: https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/tp_p52_hmm_en.pdf https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/tp_p52_hmm_en... Dell XPS15 service manual: https://topics-cdn.dell.com/pdf/xps-15-9560-laptop_setup-guide_en-us.pdf https://topics-cdn.dell.com/pdf/xps-15-9560-laptop_setup-gui... HP ZBook 15 G2 maintenance and service guide: http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c04493862 http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c04493862 They're well-written and easy to follow. It's great. All of these are public and freely available on the website of the manufacturer. They're also in PDF format (or similar) and can be opened easily in full in a browser.

xhruso00 8y ago

This thing needs more exposure. Apple fix your reputation!

dschuetz 8y ago

The recent Macbook Pro's models are beginning to sound synonymous to "design flaw". How can such a super expensive highly sophisticated computer be unreliable that much. I guess that Apple now has hit the level-of-integration wall.

nicoburns 8y ago
Yeah, it makes all of apples marketing about being environmentally friendly seem pretty disingenuous.

skilled 8y ago

The Pro I'm using right now is the 15" 2016 model, bought it brand new off the shelf, and had used several other models years prior to purchasing this one. After less than 2 years of usage, the keyboard has hardly any buttons left that I haven't had to take out and clean out, and as a result -- break the clippings that hold them together. There are also strange cracks below the screen area which makes me think the fabric is much cheaper this time around. And this whole touch bar thing... what a waste of my time and money. Absolutely unnecessary and horrendous.

neya 8y ago

Everybody makes mistakes, and that's fine. The issue itself can be forgiven for a technical design flaw. BUT, what is NOT fine is trying to censor customers who have paid a lot of money for these products, trying to voice their concerns. There is simply NO excuse for doing that. I'm absolutely disgusted by how anyone can delete forum posts that have not violated forum rules simply for exposing the company's design fault. Why have an open forum in the first place then? I can't believe what the morale amongst the Apple employees running these forums must be whose day job is to shut the voices of these customers on no valid basis. They probably got their orders higher up in their chain. Absolutely appalling. I will NEVER recommend Apple products to anyone around me although I'm already invested with almost all of their computer products.

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adetrest 8y ago
This has been going on with Apple for as far as I can remember. Apple puts out a new product, a significant number of people are affected by what seems to be a manufacturing defect, Apple suppresses mentions of it as much as they can, and a year or two later, they offer some kind of a remedy (usually free repairs) to whoever didn't rage sell or return their defective product. And because their machines are barely repairable, users can rarely fix the issue themselves. This seems to work well for them, people keep clamouring for more overpriced apple hardware and are happy to run on Apple 's treadmill to buy the new iteration every year or two, while running the risk of getting a lemon yet again. So I'm guessing that's a valid strategic decision for Apple and that's why it continues unabated.

xfitm3 8y ago

I wish I could get away from Apple products. I use macbooks. The display is great and I do like that macos typically just works. No futzing. I'm on iOS because I trust Android less. It's the lesser of two evils, unfortunately.

sneak 8y ago
I love apple hardware and still have a $5000 latest-gen laptop from them and haven’t had any of the commonly described problems of the last half-dozen years... but I still find myself using my 16gb Pixelbook at least 5x more than my touchbar retina MBP while on the road. Something about the case, the keyboard, the aspect ratio... also ChromeOS is secure like iOS, and can run Real Linux in a VM. It’s an excellent machine. The only thing I super miss is iMessage and Facetime.
- gst 8y ago
  I would really love to buy a Pixelbook (or another Chromebook) because I really like the software stack. But the fact that Google never updates the kernel on those things (you're stuck with whatever kernel version was on it when you initially purchased it) is a major reason for me to not get one. On my Linux laptop I can always run the latest software. On my Macbook Apple will stop to provide software updates at some point, but in practice the hardware is probably going to die before that anyway. On a Chromebook parts of the software stack are never going to be updated. And while most of the users probably don't care about the kernel version itself, a lot of Chrome OS features are dependent on the kernel version: with an older version you're going to miss some features (such as being able to run Linux apps), although the hardware itself would be capable of supporting them.
  - sneak 8y ago
    I don’t know the kernel versions on my phone, my Pixelbook, or my rMBP. They are all up to date from the vendors. I don’t understand this argument.
    - 8y ago

bertil 8y ago

“Stage light”! Thank you! I’ve been struggling to find help on that one. I‘ve had that problem on a lot of my MacBook; I’d say most of the models 2012-2015. (I haven’t upgraded since.) I’m happy to pay for repairs: I just did on my power cable, the second time for that model, roughly every two years. Most of the time, I notice the problem at the peak of Summer, when I’ve been working like crazy, and internal temperature is likely far from bounds. My biggest issue isn't design flaws (yes, you would expect fewer for a machine at that price) but findability. There is a ton of help online but it’s useless if I don’t know how to describe it in a search engine. I can’t take a screen capture; photos don’t show it well. Given the patterned look of the problem, the fact that I had it on several machines, I knew it was something explainable. I simply could not. Because it’s intermittent, bringing it to the Genius Bar is unhelpful. If relevant posts are being deleted, that’s horrible. If Apple wants the problem (and the independent repairmen) to go away, offer a high-production description of the problem on your Help page; if you really feel the need to add some scaremongering that it’s too high-tech for independent shops to deal with it, but give that symptom a name.

cced 8y ago

I am currently having issues with my 2018 Touchbar. The display has these quick, thin lines which flicker and appear. The anomalies are lines and checkered patterns composed of many different colours which appear for much less than a second and disappear quickly thereafter. I should note that the checkered patterns are across the whole display and uniform in colour, typically a shade of white or grey. I have sent my Macbook Pro for repair three times now. Apple has replaced the board and display (as well as the keyboard for a different issue with the “E” key double-typing) and the issues are still present. Apple told me to wait for a software update. I bought a 2011 Macbook Air which I still use today. What are the odds that my 2018 laptop serves me until 2025? Are the days of high resale values for Macs over?

consto 8y ago

Meanwhile the hinge in my £600 Lenovo ideapad broke after 4 years of carrying it to university pretty much everyday. After a quick phone call they agreed to fix it free of charge (including return postage to Germany). This was because Lenovo had independently determined that my laptop model suffered from weak hinges. A year on, I am typing on that very same laptop. It is starting to show its age and its price. And you know what? When I do finally replace it, it is probably going to be another Lenovo. That is great customer service. Meanwhile the richest company in the world fails to acknowledge a significant design flaw in their expensive, "Pro" laptop. Really, they should be willing, if not eager to replace the screens in every affected laptop free of charge. A laptop that fails after opening and closing the lid for a year or two is defective. There is should be no doubt about that. I don't know how the laws stand in the US (it probably varies state by state), but in the UK with the 2015 Consumer Rights Act, customers have potentially up to five or six years to make a claim irrespective of warranty: https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-...

consto 8y ago
It is probably worth noting I purchased the laptop from a major computer retailer sans extended warranty.
- jorvi 8y ago
  The problem is that anecdotes are not data. On the internet Apple stores are ‘famous’ for giving people the newest model MacBook Pro or iPhone in trade for an old model because their old model has some obscure specific problem that can’t readily be fixed. Or someone has had their crackedscreen replaced free of charge. However, 99% of these things happen only in US Apple stores. Geniuses in the Apple stores in Europe would laugh you out of the store if you asked for similar treatment, and would’ve told you to just wait for a few days until the replacement part / device has arrived. This leads to contentious discussions and flame wars about Apple having alternatively crap or amazing service. The same is probably true for the majority of manufacturers: some people get amazing service whilst others get dicked around. Sometimes it depends on geography. Sometimes the customer service agent was grumpy (or happy!) that day. You simply cannot base your purchase on these stories.

vbuwivbiu 8y ago

Are there any other manufacturers of metal laptops ? Seems like there are no competing metal-bodied laptops with a good centrally-mounted trackpad.

sschueller 8y ago
Why does your laptop need to be out of metal? I would think features such as performance, battery live, etc. would be most important and not what material it is made out of.
- zootam 8y ago
  it feels nice
  - artursapek 8y ago
    This is the gist of what Apple's customers are after: luxury, vanity, fashion.
    - wyclif 8y ago
      Aesthetics and good design are not mere vanity.
      - artursapek 8y ago
        They are when they take top priority. Also: "design is how it works."
imandride 8y ago
Microsoft has the Surface book which has been fabulous from the day I bought it.

ksec 8y ago

Keyboard ( 2018 3rd Generation Butterfly keyboard Still have the same issues ) Now the hinge, or Flexcable. Thunderbolt 3 / USB Port frying. Just what more to come from these 2016+ MacBook Pro TouchBar. I am typing this on a 2015 MacBook Pro with AppleCare running out next year. Not entirely sure what happens if this laptop have problem. I surely don't want any of the current MBP.

exabrial 8y ago

Absolutely fascinating analysis. Makes the hardware engineers at Apple look like rookies.

exabrial 8y ago

What bothers me about Apple [since 2013] is the showboating about environmentalism in their corporate marketing, but the complete disregard for such things in their designs. Their designs since 2014 have been the least environmentally friendly out of any company; encouraging consumers to throw heavy metals into the ecosystem without the slightest hope of repair. The 2012 Mac Mini was the same chassis as the 2014 but the repairability level is next to nil. The same story is on the current line of MacBooks. E-Waste is the largest and most harmful stream of consumer waste an Apple is leading the way. It doesn't matter how many of your data centers are running on solar panels if all of that energy is being used to destroy the environment.

AHTERIX5000 8y ago
I can't take any of that environmentalism seriously as long as they keep manufacturing simply badly designed charger/lightning cables.
- userbinator 8y ago
  "But we use PVC-free plastics!!!!11" It reminds me a bit about the whole "biodegradable" movement. Instead of making things that essentially destroy themselves after a short time, how about simply making things last longer and be more durable? Of course that would reduce their ability to keep selling you new products. It's quite a genius idea: making things that self-destruct but are "environmentally friendly" means they get both planned obolescence and to advertise the fact that they're "environmentally conscious"...
jacobolus 8y ago
Apple will collect any of their devices for recycling in most countries, https://www.apple.com/recycling/nationalservices/ https://www.apple.com/recycling/nationalservices/ From what I understand they built special-purpose robots to disassemble the past several phone versions and recover most of the content. I imagine they can recover the glass and frame from laptops; not sure what happens to the microchips. It would be interesting to see some data about how long a typical device from each manufacturer continues to see active use, and how often they get repaired. I am skeptical that e.g. the typical consumer-owned Dell/Asus/etc. laptop stays around any longer than typical Apple laptop. Anecdotally I know a bunch of people whose PC laptops were pieces of junk when they bought them, and didn’t last more than a couple years before they threw them out for a new model, and also some people who mostly buy used 3–4 year old Apple hardware.

mistersquid 8y ago

(Disclosure: I own a 2017 MacBook Pro with Touch Bar whose moving parts have not had any problem but whose sound/speakers [technically moving?] has been sent for warranty repairs twice.) Another way of looking at the Touch Bar MacBook Pros is that the design of their moving parts is so flawed the entire product could probably be categorized as defective. This is unacceptable and made even worse by their SOP of removing posts that expose them to liability. Apple has not had hardware problems like this since the Sculley years and I'm very worried things will get worse for their general-purpose computing devices before they get better. (iPhones, for now, do not seem to have the same show-stopping usability issues.) EDIT: add missing conjunction to first sentence. Replace closing parenthesis with square bracket.

CommanderData 8y ago

I convinced myself that Mac was the best laptop to buy in 2015 after comparing all available options. The design, beautiful. Technology unmatched at the time, Magsafe was genius, Retina display and build quality fantastic. I was soon to be an Apple fan boy and decided to buy the next model of MBP, hoping for just minor improvements on CPU RAM etc. I stopped myself when I saw 2016 MBP. I take Apple negativity with a lot of salt but even for me, it seems Apple has compromised Mac's quality year on year in so many ways. I still await.

rock_artist 8y ago

Don't worry. With Tim's money driven approach we might see macOS XR on Lenovo targeting the Chinese market

makecheck 8y ago

Wouldn’t it be great if there were compartmentalized laptop designs, with standard-sized places to snap in whatever accompanying hardware that you want? You can essentially plug a desktop computer into whatever keyboard, mouse/trackpad and display that you want; or at the very least, you have a lot of options. Why, in modern laptops with some of the most advanced industrial designs ever, is the entire experience now a pain in the neck? A significant number of annoyances with modern laptops are not in the computing itself but in the surrounding components that are just too damned unreliable. What’s worse, these surrounding components have an entirely different useful lifetime than the interior. I want a Mac laptop but I want to be able to “slide in” $MODERN_MAC_MOTHERBOARD under an existing robust frame that has whatever keyboard/trackpad I want. This could well include a frame that isn’t broken yet from a previous generation, and would definitely exclude unwanted “innovations” like Touch Bars. I want to slide in new batteries. I want to unhook the entire top display and replace it with a new generation of display. And if repair is required, I want to be able to go into a store and borrow a temporary display module (say) that I can slide in to my own laptop, while mailing in the broken display only. I have a really hard time believing that there are any technical reasons not to design laptops with this kind of flexibility.

gumby 8y ago
It adds a lot of affordances and interface requirements that add the cost for everyone and more opportunities for something to go wrong.

m0zg 8y ago

Apple just wants to sell you AppleCare I think. Joke's on them, though, my ThinkPad X1 is still going strong after 4 years of heavy use. I'm otherwise in the Apple ecosystem, I have the latest iPad Pro, iPhone 8 and Apple Watch 4. But $3K for a laptop that doesn't have esc key and craps out if I drop a bredcrumb on it or _open the hinge_? Give me a break.