4 ms·

Step one: reduce the police-state nature of rail (and, for that matter, all) travel within the United States. I had no idea until recently that the DEA conduct

by jMyles 8y ago

Step one: reduce the police-state nature of rail (and, for that matter, all) travel within the United States. I had no idea until recently that the DEA conducts horrifying, intimidating, completely suspicion-less raids on Amtrak sleeper cars. It happened to myself and my family last year, and although I'm planning to take Amtrak again this coming week (as there is no other rail option), it's scary to enter that environment again. Wish us luck and safety. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/federal-eye/wp/2014/08/12/dea-paid-an-amtrak-secretary-for-confidential-passenger-information/?utm_term=.66f79cc4ac56 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/federal-eye/wp/2014/08/1... https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/05/how-the-dea-harasses-amtrak-passengers/393230/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/05/how-the...

est31 8y ago
> the DEA conducts horrifying, intimidating, completely suspicion-less raids on Amtrak sleeper cars. It's still far less worse than airports, isn't it? I mean, there is a risk that you are being searched but not everyone is. Compare that to airplanes where everyone is being searched and you and can't even take a bottle of water with you.
- jMyles 8y ago
  Most of the time, it's much better than the airport. 90% of the time, Amtrak is downright civilized. However, as I found out the hard way, actually having your compartment raided by the DEA is much worse than going through the TSA line. You're in your little (previously cozy) compartment with the door blocked by DEA agents. It's just you and your family. They're barking orders and demanding to search things. They're saying that you can be removed from the train if you don't comply. They're smacking your camera out of your hands and telling you to stop recording. They're telling you that if you don't submit to a complete search, they'll bring a dog who might bite your child. To be clear: they literally did all of those things in my case. What do you do? In my case, I held firm and told them that I wasn't going to answer any questions or consent to any searches, and after an absolutely terrifying 10 minutes, during which they repeatedly threatened violence against myself and my partner while our 3.5-year old wailed in terror, they finally went away. I suspect that if I had consented to a search, they'd have stolen cash from my wallet (as has been reported by several other passengers, as you can see from the links below) or worse, planted drugs in an effort to increase their numbers and justify seizing other items. Refusing to consent to a search is the obvious best thing to do in this scenario. But it's not easy, and definitely far worse than any TSA experience I've had, which includes being singled out for "enhanced" pat-down and questioning. I mean, it's the fucking DEA. Even the modicum of professionalism that you have with the TSA is gone. > can't even take a bottle of water with you. I typically bring an empty mason jar through security and then fill it at a water fountain.
  - swiley 8y ago
    Wow I didn’t know about the drug planting. I just assumed consenting sucked but was the optimal thing to do.
    - jMyles 8y ago
      What's the advantage of consenting? It seems purely disadvantageous for the passenger. It's not like you consent and they suddenly go away. I presume that if you consent, they proceed to search all your stuff. Even if they don't steal or plant anything, it's a huge invasion of privacy and, if you have any delicate items, a risk that they'll be damaged.
      - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
        There is no advantage to consenting to a search or talking to police. Ever.
        jjoonathan 8y ago
        Pissing off someone with considerable discretionary power to make your life miserable has no disadvantages, ever?
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        "Regent Law Professor James Duane gives viewers startling reasons why they should always exercise their 5th Amendment rights when questioned by government officials." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE Mandatory viewing IMHO.
        est31 8y ago
        That's an awesome video. The guy talks a bit fast, but very great video that shows how much can go wrong. He especially makes the "I am innocent, why should I not talk to police" case be moot. Indeed, being innocent is the best defense there is against being convicted of a crime, but claiming to be innocent right at the beginning might not help your case.
- mikepurvis 8y ago
  "Airplanes are worse" is not a great reason to be an apologist for papers-please style authoritarianism. In any case, airports generally concentrate the scary security stuff in one specific area. Once you're through that, you can pretty much expect not to be hassled. Especially, say, mid-journey when you're fast asleep.
IIAOPSW 8y ago
I'm currently writing from my mobile office (the amtrak train). I am literally on the last leg of a cross country rail trip that included taking the sleeper car and stopping in San Francisco, Denver, Chicago, Detroit, Toronto, Rochester and New York. For what its worth I was never searched once. I think you just got incredibly unlucky. Which route were you on?
- jMyles 8y ago
  I've done the entire California Zephyr, the entire Empire Builder (twice), and parts of the Coast Starlight, Ethan Allen Express, Acela, Lake Shore Limited, Wolverine, Southwest Chief, Capitol Corridor, and... I dunno, a couple others also. I have done nearly the entire system and only been subjected to this treatment this one time. Now, was it luck? I'm not sure. I did find out from an Amtrak employee that the only people searched by the DEA on my trip were myself and a colleague (seven cars behind me). We work at a blockchain startup, and in both cases, this was our first Amtrak trip since starting this job. The same employee told me that she believed that people "involved in bitcoin" were targeted. Furthermore, the agents questioned my colleague about his hardware wallet and took several photos of it (and, according to him, seemed uninterested in anything else). (Side note: the Amtrak employee also told me that Amtrak folks are terrified of the DEA agents and wished they'd just be gone. She told me that they had made unwanted advances to her and other female Amtrak staff.) So I don't know if it was luck or targeting, but yes, most of my Amtrak experience has been quite pleasant by comparison.
  - Mirioron 8y ago
    Are you sure they weren't police trying to do some "civil asset forfeiture" (stealing)? People that deal with bitcoin might end up having a lot of cash on them and the police might want to take it.
    - jMyles 8y ago
      Yes, I suspect that's precisely the impetus.

by jMyles 8y ago

est31 8y ago

> the DEA conducts horrifying, intimidating, completely suspicion-less raids on Amtrak sleeper cars. It's still far less worse than airports, isn't it? I mean, there is a risk that you are being searched but not everyone is. Compare that to airplanes where everyone is being searched and you and can't even take a bottle of water with you.

jMyles 8y ago
Most of the time, it's much better than the airport. 90% of the time, Amtrak is downright civilized. However, as I found out the hard way, actually having your compartment raided by the DEA is much worse than going through the TSA line. You're in your little (previously cozy) compartment with the door blocked by DEA agents. It's just you and your family. They're barking orders and demanding to search things. They're saying that you can be removed from the train if you don't comply. They're smacking your camera out of your hands and telling you to stop recording. They're telling you that if you don't submit to a complete search, they'll bring a dog who might bite your child. To be clear: they literally did all of those things in my case. What do you do? In my case, I held firm and told them that I wasn't going to answer any questions or consent to any searches, and after an absolutely terrifying 10 minutes, during which they repeatedly threatened violence against myself and my partner while our 3.5-year old wailed in terror, they finally went away. I suspect that if I had consented to a search, they'd have stolen cash from my wallet (as has been reported by several other passengers, as you can see from the links below) or worse, planted drugs in an effort to increase their numbers and justify seizing other items. Refusing to consent to a search is the obvious best thing to do in this scenario. But it's not easy, and definitely far worse than any TSA experience I've had, which includes being singled out for "enhanced" pat-down and questioning. I mean, it's the fucking DEA. Even the modicum of professionalism that you have with the TSA is gone. > can't even take a bottle of water with you. I typically bring an empty mason jar through security and then fill it at a water fountain.
- swiley 8y ago
  Wow I didn’t know about the drug planting. I just assumed consenting sucked but was the optimal thing to do.
  - jMyles 8y ago
    What's the advantage of consenting? It seems purely disadvantageous for the passenger. It's not like you consent and they suddenly go away. I presume that if you consent, they proceed to search all your stuff. Even if they don't steal or plant anything, it's a huge invasion of privacy and, if you have any delicate items, a risk that they'll be damaged.
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      There is no advantage to consenting to a search or talking to police. Ever.
      - jjoonathan 8y ago
        Pissing off someone with considerable discretionary power to make your life miserable has no disadvantages, ever?
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        "Regent Law Professor James Duane gives viewers startling reasons why they should always exercise their 5th Amendment rights when questioned by government officials." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE Mandatory viewing IMHO.
        est31 8y ago
        That's an awesome video. The guy talks a bit fast, but very great video that shows how much can go wrong. He especially makes the "I am innocent, why should I not talk to police" case be moot. Indeed, being innocent is the best defense there is against being convicted of a crime, but claiming to be innocent right at the beginning might not help your case.
mikepurvis 8y ago
"Airplanes are worse" is not a great reason to be an apologist for papers-please style authoritarianism. In any case, airports generally concentrate the scary security stuff in one specific area. Once you're through that, you can pretty much expect not to be hassled. Especially, say, mid-journey when you're fast asleep.

IIAOPSW 8y ago

I'm currently writing from my mobile office (the amtrak train). I am literally on the last leg of a cross country rail trip that included taking the sleeper car and stopping in San Francisco, Denver, Chicago, Detroit, Toronto, Rochester and New York. For what its worth I was never searched once. I think you just got incredibly unlucky. Which route were you on?

jMyles 8y ago
I've done the entire California Zephyr, the entire Empire Builder (twice), and parts of the Coast Starlight, Ethan Allen Express, Acela, Lake Shore Limited, Wolverine, Southwest Chief, Capitol Corridor, and... I dunno, a couple others also. I have done nearly the entire system and only been subjected to this treatment this one time. Now, was it luck? I'm not sure. I did find out from an Amtrak employee that the only people searched by the DEA on my trip were myself and a colleague (seven cars behind me). We work at a blockchain startup, and in both cases, this was our first Amtrak trip since starting this job. The same employee told me that she believed that people "involved in bitcoin" were targeted. Furthermore, the agents questioned my colleague about his hardware wallet and took several photos of it (and, according to him, seemed uninterested in anything else). (Side note: the Amtrak employee also told me that Amtrak folks are terrified of the DEA agents and wished they'd just be gone. She told me that they had made unwanted advances to her and other female Amtrak staff.) So I don't know if it was luck or targeting, but yes, most of my Amtrak experience has been quite pleasant by comparison.
- Mirioron 8y ago
  Are you sure they weren't police trying to do some "civil asset forfeiture" (stealing)? People that deal with bitcoin might end up having a lot of cash on them and the police might want to take it.
  - jMyles 8y ago
    Yes, I suspect that's precisely the impetus.