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The problem isn't really bad choices, it's uninformed choices. People don't realize how little data is needed to extrapolate a lot. Then you usually get the "f

The problem isn't really bad choices, it's uninformed choices. People don't realize how little data is needed to extrapolate a lot. Then you usually get the "facebook is turning on my microphone without asking me" people. They just can't fathom that the precision with which they get ads could be the result of anything else.

piyush_soni 8y ago
>> The problem isn't really bad choices, it's uninformed choices So that, should be the job of the OS (Apple in this case), rather than limiting the user's choices of where he/she can install an app from.
- bastawhiz 8y ago
  Apple might be a dictator, but so far they've proven to be mostly benevolent. I'm glad my mom doesn't have the ability to sell her privacy to Facebook via a shady VPN in exchange for gift cards. The problem is that mobile devices can say "This app changes your VPN settings and installs a root cert". The general public says "Whatever, I want my olive garden gift card." It could could maybe say "This app could see everything you do online", but it really needs to explain "This app can see very site you visit, every message you send, every porn link you click, etc". Until the OS can actually inform the user what they're trading, it's not choice, it's deception. And that brings us back to Apple. Until devices can do this for themselves, someone needs to be the gate keeper. Letting users willingly install some candy-themed clicker game that steals your contacts, location, and photos is _objectively bad_ in the same way that BonzaiBuddy and CometCursor were bad twenty years ago. Right now, the only answer we have to this problem is Apple and Google playing the role of the good guy and working towards better solutions.
  - piyush_soni 8y ago
    So why do you think Apple can't explain its permissions in a way majority of its users can understand (yes, including the clear cautionary messages that you wrote). Guess what, Android does that! When you install any third party keyboard on Android, it clearly tells you in plain text it can read everything you type, including credit card numbers etc. We just need the information about what can be the worst possibilities for each permission an app asks for. Apple doesn't want to do that. It wants control over everything.
jfoutz 8y ago
I am considering revising my opinion about uninformed choices. Mostly, there's a whole bunch of stuff to know. I think i'm on board for things that are transparent and trustworthy. Where did this egg come from? how was the hen cared for? It would be super sweet if the history of every object i interact with (or consider purchasing) was available in a tamper proof way. So, if your argument is, i can get source for whatever and put it on my phone, i am 100% on board. But that's a pretty big ask. generally my only option is to rely on the supplier, and whatever regulations/inspections they're subject to. The other thing that sorta ticks me off is, this is Facebook and Google. This isn't some 419 scam. These are real, grown up businesses that chose to ask children to do these things. children should be informed, children should be educated. but, uh, how high of a standard do you want to hold a 14 year old to? If they're willing to download and compile the source, and install the software, ok. i think i'm on board. A one click (oh by the way we're activating the mic when you have your first kiss) install is, unseemly. it's gross. Taking candy from a baby is easy, but despicable. I don't mean this to be a THINK OF THE CHILDREN post. it's just as despicable to manipulate adults like that. children just put a special emotional point on the argument. feel free to throw all that out and tell me why it's ok to ask a middle aged person that has about 15 free minutes a week to research why this app is 'safe'.
- sascha_sl 8y ago
  I think you misunderstood; I was in favor of not opening up the floodgates on iOS exactly because most people can't grasp what sharing their data leads to (as seen by their reaction: being creeped out and assuming only listening to them talk would lead to such accurate predictions)
chongli 8y ago
The problem isn't really bad choices, it's uninformed choices. What difference is there, in practice? The world is getting more complicated every day. The amount of information being created in a single day is more than a person could consume in a lifetime. At some point we should ask ourselves whether it's possible for anyone to have a fully informed opinion on every issue that could ever effect them.
- signal11 8y ago
  Great point. For example here is an example of a fairly informed user struggling with security decisions foisted upon him: https://twitter.com/random_walker/status/1087352548846157827?s=21 https://twitter.com/random_walker/status/1087352548846157827... Asking users to make informed decisions about infosec is something from the Windows XP era. Ever since then it’s become clear that platforms will have to be opinionated about their security choices. For instance allowing users to side-load apps also allows carriers to install crapware and certain governments to mandate monitoring apps. Platform designers need to figure out if that’s worth it — I’m sure different people will reach different conclusions.
  - hisnameisjimmy 8y ago
    This also feeds into arguments about giving people 'best choice' defaults and the role of government. Government, in an ideal scenario, takes care of situations where the individual person is likely to make a bad choice and screw themselves over because the ability to understand the problem domain is so much work that they are unlikely to make the effort. This whole conversation in this thread is basically about the nanny-state vs freedom to make your own choices, even if they're more than likely to end up in a bad situation for the end user. I think everyone is constantly trying to thread the needle on that tension in a way that is acceptable to the broader culture.
- sascha_sl 8y ago
  Very few things are actually bad choices, yes, but they do exist. I wanted to differentiate so nobody would assume I'm saying it's their fault.

piyush_soni 8y ago

>> The problem isn't really bad choices, it's uninformed choices So that, should be the job of the OS (Apple in this case), rather than limiting the user's choices of where he/she can install an app from.

bastawhiz 8y ago
Apple might be a dictator, but so far they've proven to be mostly benevolent. I'm glad my mom doesn't have the ability to sell her privacy to Facebook via a shady VPN in exchange for gift cards. The problem is that mobile devices can say "This app changes your VPN settings and installs a root cert". The general public says "Whatever, I want my olive garden gift card." It could could maybe say "This app could see everything you do online", but it really needs to explain "This app can see very site you visit, every message you send, every porn link you click, etc". Until the OS can actually inform the user what they're trading, it's not choice, it's deception. And that brings us back to Apple. Until devices can do this for themselves, someone needs to be the gate keeper. Letting users willingly install some candy-themed clicker game that steals your contacts, location, and photos is _objectively bad_ in the same way that BonzaiBuddy and CometCursor were bad twenty years ago. Right now, the only answer we have to this problem is Apple and Google playing the role of the good guy and working towards better solutions.
- piyush_soni 8y ago
  So why do you think Apple can't explain its permissions in a way majority of its users can understand (yes, including the clear cautionary messages that you wrote). Guess what, Android does that! When you install any third party keyboard on Android, it clearly tells you in plain text it can read everything you type, including credit card numbers etc. We just need the information about what can be the worst possibilities for each permission an app asks for. Apple doesn't want to do that. It wants control over everything.

jfoutz 8y ago

I am considering revising my opinion about uninformed choices. Mostly, there's a whole bunch of stuff to know. I think i'm on board for things that are transparent and trustworthy. Where did this egg come from? how was the hen cared for? It would be super sweet if the history of every object i interact with (or consider purchasing) was available in a tamper proof way. So, if your argument is, i can get source for whatever and put it on my phone, i am 100% on board. But that's a pretty big ask. generally my only option is to rely on the supplier, and whatever regulations/inspections they're subject to. The other thing that sorta ticks me off is, this is Facebook and Google. This isn't some 419 scam. These are real, grown up businesses that chose to ask children to do these things. children should be informed, children should be educated. but, uh, how high of a standard do you want to hold a 14 year old to? If they're willing to download and compile the source, and install the software, ok. i think i'm on board. A one click (oh by the way we're activating the mic when you have your first kiss) install is, unseemly. it's gross. Taking candy from a baby is easy, but despicable. I don't mean this to be a THINK OF THE CHILDREN post. it's just as despicable to manipulate adults like that. children just put a special emotional point on the argument. feel free to throw all that out and tell me why it's ok to ask a middle aged person that has about 15 free minutes a week to research why this app is 'safe'.

sascha_sl 8y ago
I think you misunderstood; I was in favor of not opening up the floodgates on iOS exactly because most people can't grasp what sharing their data leads to (as seen by their reaction: being creeped out and assuming only listening to them talk would lead to such accurate predictions)

chongli 8y ago

The problem isn't really bad choices, it's uninformed choices. What difference is there, in practice? The world is getting more complicated every day. The amount of information being created in a single day is more than a person could consume in a lifetime. At some point we should ask ourselves whether it's possible for anyone to have a fully informed opinion on every issue that could ever effect them.

signal11 8y ago
Great point. For example here is an example of a fairly informed user struggling with security decisions foisted upon him: https://twitter.com/random_walker/status/1087352548846157827?s=21 https://twitter.com/random_walker/status/1087352548846157827... Asking users to make informed decisions about infosec is something from the Windows XP era. Ever since then it’s become clear that platforms will have to be opinionated about their security choices. For instance allowing users to side-load apps also allows carriers to install crapware and certain governments to mandate monitoring apps. Platform designers need to figure out if that’s worth it — I’m sure different people will reach different conclusions.
- hisnameisjimmy 8y ago
  This also feeds into arguments about giving people 'best choice' defaults and the role of government. Government, in an ideal scenario, takes care of situations where the individual person is likely to make a bad choice and screw themselves over because the ability to understand the problem domain is so much work that they are unlikely to make the effort. This whole conversation in this thread is basically about the nanny-state vs freedom to make your own choices, even if they're more than likely to end up in a bad situation for the end user. I think everyone is constantly trying to thread the needle on that tension in a way that is acceptable to the broader culture.
sascha_sl 8y ago
Very few things are actually bad choices, yes, but they do exist. I wanted to differentiate so nobody would assume I'm saying it's their fault.