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It seems like the Russians believed the shuttle would certainly be used for weapons delivery while the US intended it for espionage purposes. I wonder why the

by iaw 8y ago

It seems like the Russians believed the shuttle would certainly be used for weapons delivery while the US intended it for espionage purposes. I wonder why the Russians wouldn't consider such a possibility.

entity345 8y ago
The price tag and max payload? Perhaps they thought unrealistic to spend that much and to be able to carry that much just to take pictures...
- JohnBooty 8y ago
  That's one of my favorite things about this whole debacle. The Space Shuttle program was so incomprehensibly inefficient that the USSR thought that surely the USA was hiding something. In reality, it was just... a really inefficient program. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Space_Shuttle_program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Space_Shuttle...
  - rbanffy 8y ago
    I think the Soviets figuring out it was a weapon before it being deployed was key in preventing it from being deployed as a weapon. It then became a civilian program with military requirements and military operating costs - very inefficient.
JohnBooty 8y ago
> I wonder why the Russians wouldn't consider such a possibility The USA already been doing aerial and satellite recon on the USSR for ages. We don't see much discussion of the Shuttle's ability to launch surveillance satellites because that was an absolute given. Nobody questioned that.
- DuskStar 8y ago
  The espionage capability he's referring to wasn't the ability to launch satellites, it was the ability to recover them. Including Russian ones!
  - kijin 8y ago
    Recovering satellites sounds odd in our age of ubiquitous high-speed digital communication. But back then, pictures taken by a reconnaissance satellite were recovered by having rolls of used film thrown at the Earth for airplanes to catch in mid-air [1]. Using a shuttle would have looked awfully simple compared to that. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_(satellite) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_(satellite)
    - jonlucc 8y ago
      If you have a chance, a few of these satellites are on display at the National Museum of the USAF in Dayton, OH. Last time I was there I took a few pictures of the KH-7, KH-8, and KH-9. https://imgur.com/gallery/P89GME7 https://imgur.com/gallery/P89GME7
  - dsl 8y ago
    The X-37B drone (a space shuttle replacement for the Air Force) is suspected to be doing exactly that. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/why-russia-china-should-fear-the-x-37b-space-plane-18099 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/why-russia-china-...
masswerk 8y ago
Manned orbital reconnaissance was an outdated concept then, abandoned with Project MOL/Gemini B and Almaz. I guess, it would have been rather counterintuitive to suspect such a role for the shuttle, with the systems dedicatedly developed for this lying around unused. And then there was still this huge payload capacity, which wouldn't fit the purpose… (PS: While Gemini B did an empty shell test flight only, Almaz actually flew a few missions. So the Soviets actually won – widely unbeknownst – this military space race. However, at the time the US had already switched to their recon satellite program. We may assume that the two parallel projects had shaped pretty much the idea of the profile of such a mission and that the shuttle would have been an odd fit.)
- michaelt 8y ago
  I assume what iaw means by "espionage purposes" is that the Space Shuttle had a bunch of size/performance requirements set by the National Reconnaissance Office [1]. There's a certain amount of conjecture here, as spy stuff is classified. It's pretty well established that NRO needs impacted the payload size and 'cross range capability' (i.e. ability to land from polar orbit) [2] which may well have driven the delta-wing design and the piggyback-booster design [3]. And of course without the piggyback design, the Columbia disaster might not have happened. [1] http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1960/1 http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1960/1 [2] http://www.jamesoberg.com/sts-3A_B-DRM.PDF http://www.jamesoberg.com/sts-3A_B-DRM.PDF [3] https://history.nasa.gov/sts1/pages/scota.html https://history.nasa.gov/sts1/pages/scota.html
- PaulHoule 8y ago
  The Shuttle could grab on to random satellites with the Canadian arm -- it was a potential ASAT weapon. Astronauts could then get out to inspect or tamper with satellites. Or they could put the satellite in the cargo bay and take it home.

by iaw 8y ago

entity345 8y ago

The price tag and max payload? Perhaps they thought unrealistic to spend that much and to be able to carry that much just to take pictures...

JohnBooty 8y ago
That's one of my favorite things about this whole debacle. The Space Shuttle program was so incomprehensibly inefficient that the USSR thought that surely the USA was hiding something. In reality, it was just... a really inefficient program. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Space_Shuttle_program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Space_Shuttle...
- rbanffy 8y ago
  I think the Soviets figuring out it was a weapon before it being deployed was key in preventing it from being deployed as a weapon. It then became a civilian program with military requirements and military operating costs - very inefficient.

JohnBooty 8y ago

> I wonder why the Russians wouldn't consider such a possibility The USA already been doing aerial and satellite recon on the USSR for ages. We don't see much discussion of the Shuttle's ability to launch surveillance satellites because that was an absolute given. Nobody questioned that.

DuskStar 8y ago
The espionage capability he's referring to wasn't the ability to launch satellites, it was the ability to recover them. Including Russian ones!
- kijin 8y ago
  Recovering satellites sounds odd in our age of ubiquitous high-speed digital communication. But back then, pictures taken by a reconnaissance satellite were recovered by having rolls of used film thrown at the Earth for airplanes to catch in mid-air [1]. Using a shuttle would have looked awfully simple compared to that. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_(satellite) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_(satellite)
  - jonlucc 8y ago
    If you have a chance, a few of these satellites are on display at the National Museum of the USAF in Dayton, OH. Last time I was there I took a few pictures of the KH-7, KH-8, and KH-9. https://imgur.com/gallery/P89GME7 https://imgur.com/gallery/P89GME7
- dsl 8y ago
  The X-37B drone (a space shuttle replacement for the Air Force) is suspected to be doing exactly that. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/why-russia-china-should-fear-the-x-37b-space-plane-18099 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/why-russia-china-...

masswerk 8y ago

Manned orbital reconnaissance was an outdated concept then, abandoned with Project MOL/Gemini B and Almaz. I guess, it would have been rather counterintuitive to suspect such a role for the shuttle, with the systems dedicatedly developed for this lying around unused. And then there was still this huge payload capacity, which wouldn't fit the purpose… (PS: While Gemini B did an empty shell test flight only, Almaz actually flew a few missions. So the Soviets actually won – widely unbeknownst – this military space race. However, at the time the US had already switched to their recon satellite program. We may assume that the two parallel projects had shaped pretty much the idea of the profile of such a mission and that the shuttle would have been an odd fit.)

michaelt 8y ago
I assume what iaw means by "espionage purposes" is that the Space Shuttle had a bunch of size/performance requirements set by the National Reconnaissance Office [1]. There's a certain amount of conjecture here, as spy stuff is classified. It's pretty well established that NRO needs impacted the payload size and 'cross range capability' (i.e. ability to land from polar orbit) [2] which may well have driven the delta-wing design and the piggyback-booster design [3]. And of course without the piggyback design, the Columbia disaster might not have happened. [1] http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1960/1 http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1960/1 [2] http://www.jamesoberg.com/sts-3A_B-DRM.PDF http://www.jamesoberg.com/sts-3A_B-DRM.PDF [3] https://history.nasa.gov/sts1/pages/scota.html https://history.nasa.gov/sts1/pages/scota.html
PaulHoule 8y ago
The Shuttle could grab on to random satellites with the Canadian arm -- it was a potential ASAT weapon. Astronauts could then get out to inspect or tamper with satellites. Or they could put the satellite in the cargo bay and take it home.