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I don't understand how allowing people the option to download things outside of the App Store mitigates the iPhone's ability to enforce privacy measures. It's c

I don't understand how allowing people the option to download things outside of the App Store mitigates the iPhone's ability to enforce privacy measures. It's completely possible to sandbox apps that don't come from the App Store, and they could even default to only allowing you to install apps from the App Store, with a secondary security tier of "allow installation of signed apps" and a third security tier of "allow installation of unsigned apps". If you choose to install things outside of the App Store, you would be in the minority. Very, very few people have ever installed anything outside of the Play Store on Android... with the exception of Fortnite. This isn't an all-or-nothing proposition... and I'm definitely not suggesting "iOS should run all code encountered on the internet as root".

saagarjha 8y ago
This is how macOS works currently. Unfortunately, macOS has also had more aggressive malware because of this: it's easy to socially engineer users into removing security barriers.
- coder543 8y ago
  More aggressive malware than what? There has been very little malware, and almost all of it gets shutdown within hours by Apple blacklisting the malware. I don't use macOS, so maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't heard of malware ravaging the macOS landscape. Windows has gotten a lot better about malware, and macOS is still not even at the same level of risk as modern Windows. I'm certain that Apple could do even better with iOS since they have the advantage of not needing to maintain compatibility with an existing ecosystem of software being distributed outside of the App Store.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    Than iOS.
    - coder543 8y ago
      But again, if it's a non-issue on macOS (which it is, by all accounts of my Mac using friends and coworkers), then it would be even more of a non-issue on iOS, where they have a clean slate to design a security model "the right way" for apps distributed outside of the App Store. If users willingly choose to give up their information in exchange for a $20 gift card, isn't that their choice? I wouldn't do it, and you wouldn't do it, but as long as they're adults, isn't that their choice, not yours? If apps are trying to steal information without informing the users, those could be blacklisted outside of the App Store just as well as they can be blacklisted inside it if Apple requires centrally managed signing certificates... but I would still favor an option of allowing unsigned software to be installed. The user's choice should be their choice. Being outside of the App Store wouldn't necessarily be carte blanche, although it would hopefully enable developers to do more and better stuff, as well as make development more accessible to hobbyists who don't want to pay to distribute their stuff on the App Store.
      - saagarjha 8y ago
        > if it's a non-issue on macOS (which it is, by all accounts of my Mac using friends and coworkers) It's not quite a non-issue, but it's a small one, mostly due to the small userbase and Apple's efforts to quickly blacklist malware. > they have a clean slate to design a security model "the right way" for apps distributed outside of the App Store Apple's solution is very clearly "don't distribute outside the App Store". > If users willingly choose to give up their information in exchange for a $20 gift card, isn't that their choice? I wouldn't do it, and you wouldn't do it, but as long as they're adults, isn't that kind of their choice? One argument that I have heard (and am presenting without attaching my views on its validity) is that if anything goes wrong with someone's iPhone, they will blame Apple for their messed-up device rather than themselves. So it's in Apple's best interest to prevent people from being able to do stupid things.
        jeena 8y ago
        Do they do that if something goes wrong with their MacBook too? Is Apple's best interest something it's customers should be striving for, or is freedom (even to shoot yourself in the foot) the higher priority one?
  - glennpratt 8y ago
    I spent part of my Christmas vacation removing malware from family Macs, no issues on Windows. Annecdotes probably aren't that useful here though.
    - Lio 8y ago
      Do you remember the name of the malware you removed so that we could judge if it was as still a threat?
      - glennpratt 8y ago
        I don't, but it was 2, a fake malware scanner and a browser hijack (changed search, hompage, etc and would reset itself automatically, also stuck a toolbar in at least Chrome, not sure about Safari).
javagram 8y ago
People could click the checkboxes and give away their privacy, as panelists in these Google and Facebook research programs did. Some privacy advocates think that people shouldn’t have the freedom to do that, because they can make bad choices. They aren’t wrong that a locked down system like iOS is safer overall for users, as long as you’re ok with Apple controlling what content you can use.
- wmf 8y ago
  Maybe iOS could allow sideloading of normal apps but not VPNs or CA certificates.
  - dymk 8y ago
    You've identified a partial list of apps which might be bad for user privacy. Could you produce an exhaustive list, though? And specific policy defining what would constitute a violating app?
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    Apple already does this; you need to be part of the paid developer program to be able to sign VPN apps.
  - curt15 8y ago
    Forcing VPNs to be installed only via the app store also means that an authoritarian state like China has a single source to clamp down on when they want to restrict citizens' access to information.
    - saagarjha 8y ago
      Which China has already done.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      You don’t need to “install” VPN apps at all. https://www.imore.com/how-configure-vpn-access-your-iphone-or-ipad https://www.imore.com/how-configure-vpn-access-your-iphone-o...
chrischen 8y ago
They are a dictator sure, but a benevolent one.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
briandear 8y ago
Unless those apps not from the App Store are open source, we have very little means of being able to trust those apps to do the right thing. Apple isn’t perfect, but they do provide a modicum of assurance that the apps you install aren’t going to be malware. Apple’s incentives are aligned with the consumer — if a bunch of malware infects Apple devices, that harms the Apple brand and the consumer. The App Store also rewards developers who do the right thing by providing access to a billion devices in exchange for adhering to certain standards of security.
Tsubasachan 8y ago
I'm not impressed with Apple walled garden. They will block apps that go against monetization. Apps like DNS66 or blokada will never get in. Its not just about security. I could never trust an Apple or Google run app store to serve MY interests.
scarface74 8y ago
And Fortnite is the perfect example of what can happen.... https://www.cnet.com/news/fortnites-battle-royale-with-android-security-problems-is-just-getting-started/ https://www.cnet.com/news/fortnites-battle-royale-with-andro...
empath75 8y ago
If you want to sell your privacy, you can use android.
chooseaname 8y ago
How would you see the past couple days playing out? Would FB and Google have been prevented from distributing the apps they did?

saagarjha 8y ago

This is how macOS works currently. Unfortunately, macOS has also had more aggressive malware because of this: it's easy to socially engineer users into removing security barriers.

coder543 8y ago
More aggressive malware than what? There has been very little malware, and almost all of it gets shutdown within hours by Apple blacklisting the malware. I don't use macOS, so maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't heard of malware ravaging the macOS landscape. Windows has gotten a lot better about malware, and macOS is still not even at the same level of risk as modern Windows. I'm certain that Apple could do even better with iOS since they have the advantage of not needing to maintain compatibility with an existing ecosystem of software being distributed outside of the App Store.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  Than iOS.
  - coder543 8y ago
    But again, if it's a non-issue on macOS (which it is, by all accounts of my Mac using friends and coworkers), then it would be even more of a non-issue on iOS, where they have a clean slate to design a security model "the right way" for apps distributed outside of the App Store. If users willingly choose to give up their information in exchange for a $20 gift card, isn't that their choice? I wouldn't do it, and you wouldn't do it, but as long as they're adults, isn't that their choice, not yours? If apps are trying to steal information without informing the users, those could be blacklisted outside of the App Store just as well as they can be blacklisted inside it if Apple requires centrally managed signing certificates... but I would still favor an option of allowing unsigned software to be installed. The user's choice should be their choice. Being outside of the App Store wouldn't necessarily be carte blanche, although it would hopefully enable developers to do more and better stuff, as well as make development more accessible to hobbyists who don't want to pay to distribute their stuff on the App Store.
    - saagarjha 8y ago
      > if it's a non-issue on macOS (which it is, by all accounts of my Mac using friends and coworkers) It's not quite a non-issue, but it's a small one, mostly due to the small userbase and Apple's efforts to quickly blacklist malware. > they have a clean slate to design a security model "the right way" for apps distributed outside of the App Store Apple's solution is very clearly "don't distribute outside the App Store". > If users willingly choose to give up their information in exchange for a $20 gift card, isn't that their choice? I wouldn't do it, and you wouldn't do it, but as long as they're adults, isn't that kind of their choice? One argument that I have heard (and am presenting without attaching my views on its validity) is that if anything goes wrong with someone's iPhone, they will blame Apple for their messed-up device rather than themselves. So it's in Apple's best interest to prevent people from being able to do stupid things.
      - jeena 8y ago
        Do they do that if something goes wrong with their MacBook too? Is Apple's best interest something it's customers should be striving for, or is freedom (even to shoot yourself in the foot) the higher priority one?
- glennpratt 8y ago
  I spent part of my Christmas vacation removing malware from family Macs, no issues on Windows. Annecdotes probably aren't that useful here though.
  - Lio 8y ago
    Do you remember the name of the malware you removed so that we could judge if it was as still a threat?
    - glennpratt 8y ago
      I don't, but it was 2, a fake malware scanner and a browser hijack (changed search, hompage, etc and would reset itself automatically, also stuck a toolbar in at least Chrome, not sure about Safari).

javagram 8y ago

People could click the checkboxes and give away their privacy, as panelists in these Google and Facebook research programs did. Some privacy advocates think that people shouldn’t have the freedom to do that, because they can make bad choices. They aren’t wrong that a locked down system like iOS is safer overall for users, as long as you’re ok with Apple controlling what content you can use.

wmf 8y ago
Maybe iOS could allow sideloading of normal apps but not VPNs or CA certificates.
- dymk 8y ago
  You've identified a partial list of apps which might be bad for user privacy. Could you produce an exhaustive list, though? And specific policy defining what would constitute a violating app?
- saagarjha 8y ago
  Apple already does this; you need to be part of the paid developer program to be able to sign VPN apps.
- curt15 8y ago
  Forcing VPNs to be installed only via the app store also means that an authoritarian state like China has a single source to clamp down on when they want to restrict citizens' access to information.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    Which China has already done.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    You don’t need to “install” VPN apps at all. https://www.imore.com/how-configure-vpn-access-your-iphone-or-ipad https://www.imore.com/how-configure-vpn-access-your-iphone-o...

chrischen 8y ago

They are a dictator sure, but a benevolent one.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

briandear 8y ago

Unless those apps not from the App Store are open source, we have very little means of being able to trust those apps to do the right thing. Apple isn’t perfect, but they do provide a modicum of assurance that the apps you install aren’t going to be malware. Apple’s incentives are aligned with the consumer — if a bunch of malware infects Apple devices, that harms the Apple brand and the consumer. The App Store also rewards developers who do the right thing by providing access to a billion devices in exchange for adhering to certain standards of security.

Tsubasachan 8y ago

I'm not impressed with Apple walled garden. They will block apps that go against monetization. Apps like DNS66 or blokada will never get in. Its not just about security. I could never trust an Apple or Google run app store to serve MY interests.

scarface74 8y ago

And Fortnite is the perfect example of what can happen.... https://www.cnet.com/news/fortnites-battle-royale-with-android-security-problems-is-just-getting-started/ https://www.cnet.com/news/fortnites-battle-royale-with-andro...

empath75 8y ago

If you want to sell your privacy, you can use android.

chooseaname 8y ago

How would you see the past couple days playing out? Would FB and Google have been prevented from distributing the apps they did?