7 ms·

Well put. It is an interesting salvo in what I've started thinking of as the "data war." All three companies have a huge asset in data collection capability, a

Well put. It is an interesting salvo in what I've started thinking of as the "data war." All three companies have a huge asset in data collection capability, and preventing the others from exploiting it is only the first skirmish among them. It will be interesting to see if Google offers to pay additional monies to Apple in order to "restore" this pipeline, and whether or not Apple will agree. In one sense, Apple already gives up a data feed by sending search queries to Google.

olliej 8y ago
Apple actively avoids no anything - the primary difficulty in collecting nothing, and having no access to it, is users expect not to lose data. Even in that case where they’ve lost all of their devices (which could obviously be just a single one). Making that possible was the topic of Ivan Krstic’s talk at black hat a few years ago.
eanzenberg 8y ago
>> In one sense, Apple already gives up a data feed by sending search queries to Google. Apple does this under protest. Their top search queries are served through siri lately, and the hope is siri will replace all search so they won't need to utilize google anymore.
- manigandham 8y ago
  So they’re going to build their own search engine? Siri doesn’t do anything outside of your own data.
  - eanzenberg 8y ago
    It's called "siri suggested website" or "siri knowledge" when I search in Safari.
  - perfect_wave 8y ago
    What if Apple bought Duckduckgo?
    - jtd514 8y ago
      Then they still need to build a search engine, DuckDuckGo is just a proxy for google.
      - moron4hire 8y ago
        It's a lot more than "just" a proxy.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - saagarjha 8y ago
        > DuckDuckGo is just a proxy for google Bing, I thought?
        mirimir 8y ago
        I know that Startpage uses Google. And Searx uses Bing. But I think that DuckDuckGo uses multiple sources. Although it's easy to restrict that to Google.
      - diffeomorphism 8y ago
        They also have their own crawler https://duckduckgo.com/duckduckbot https://duckduckgo.com/duckduckbot and additionally use several hundred "sources" for their results https://duck.co/help/results/sources https://duck.co/help/results/sources with the main source seeming to be bing. I don't think google is one of these sources.
      - yellowapple 8y ago
        No it's not. If anything it's a proxy for Bing, but that's one of many data sources[0] (another of which being DDG's own crawler[1]). I'm not aware of Google actually being one of those data sources; you might be thinking of StartPage, which is a proxy for Google. [0]: https://duck.co/help/results/sources https://duck.co/help/results/sources [1]: https://duckduckgo.com/duckduckbot https://duckduckgo.com/duckduckbot
- ChuckMcM 8y ago
  Siri isn't a search engine, it is a front end to a search engine[1]. That used to be Bing but now it is Google (see: http://fortune.com/2017/09/25/google-bing-default-iphone/ http://fortune.com/2017/09/25/google-bing-default-iphone/) There was a time when the Siri folks approached Blekko (which was an actual search engine with its own index, crawler, and ranking Etc. to discuss partnering with Apple (personally I think they should have bought us :-)) But, according to people who should know, there was a cultural mental block at Apple about providing web services at the time. The biggest thing like that they had done was Apple Maps and it was a 'mixed' success. Apple didn't see itself as being a search company. I used to point out that Microsoft had a phone (Nokia), an operating system (Windows Phone), and a search engine. Google had a phone (Nexus), an operating system (Android), and a search engine. Apple had a phone (iPhone) and an operating system (iOS). Since that time Microsoft dropped the OS and phone, and Apple never did build a real search engine. [1] More precisely it is a front end to a simple knowledge base, a local index of things on your device, and when those things are exhausted an internet search engine.
  - eanzenberg 8y ago
    In safari, when you enter terms into the search bar, the "google suggestions" is separate from "siri knowledge" or "siri suggested website" which they surface at the top. It looks like Apple generates that independent of google
    - why_only_15 8y ago
      Siri suggested website is based on what your device knows about you (that is never uploaded from your device).
      - eanzenberg 8y ago
        and if you select a link through siri, google doesn't get your query (data).
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- twoodfin 8y ago
  Not under protest, but for profit. The current figures are not public, but Google pays billions annually to Apple to remain the default search engine on iOS.
  - Kye 8y ago
    It's easy to change, and one of the default options is DuckDuckGo.
  - eanzenberg 8y ago
    Do you think aapl needs google's "billions"? No, they're making way more money selling "privacy" and building a solid search engine to replace google is high priority for them.
    - IntelMiner 8y ago
      >and building a solid search engine to replace google is high priority for them. What are you basing that on, exactly? Apple doesn't exist in a market simply to "be" in that market. That's why they jettisoned things like their Airport routers
      - ptd 8y ago
        Why does apple exist in a market? Say phones or laptops? Not calling you out, genuinely curious to your opinion.
burtonator 8y ago
Data wars is an understatement. Facebook is AMAZINGLY litigious on its data. Do this. Create a fake company and say you wrote a spider to index Facebook public profile data and that you have like say 100GB .... Watch how fast you get sued by Facebook. Mind you this is public data that EVERYONE can see...
- ddtaylor 8y ago
  > Do this ... get sued by Facebook. "It's a bold strategy, Cotton, let's see if it pays off for him"
- aasasd 8y ago
  > public data that EVERYONE can see The entire concept of law is based on the premise that not everything that is physically possible should be permitted.
  - kd0amg 8y ago
    The web makes things interesting in that OP's hypothetical company only has that data because Facebook willingly gives it to everyone who asks. It would be obviously wrong if they were using some exploit to trick Facebook's servers into divulging secrets.
    - aasasd 8y ago
      > gives it to everyone who asks Yeah nah, that's where the concept of agreements comes in. You walk up to Fes Boock and say: ― I want to have business with Fes Boock. ― Fes Boock will have business with you if you promise to not stab Fes Boock in the back. ― I give my word to not stab Fes Boock in the back. Turns out, this thing is so valuable, it's supported by law everywhere that I know of, in multiple forms, including rather implicit ones such as “ToS.” Which is what allows Fes to sue the stabbing bastard.
      - landryraccoon 8y ago
        To my knowledge making an HTTP GET request and then receiving a document does not involve agreeing to any TOS, implicitly or otherwise. If the server didn’t want to send the data over an authenticated channel, then why does it send the data?

olliej 8y ago

Apple actively avoids no anything - the primary difficulty in collecting nothing, and having no access to it, is users expect not to lose data. Even in that case where they’ve lost all of their devices (which could obviously be just a single one). Making that possible was the topic of Ivan Krstic’s talk at black hat a few years ago.

eanzenberg 8y ago

>> In one sense, Apple already gives up a data feed by sending search queries to Google. Apple does this under protest. Their top search queries are served through siri lately, and the hope is siri will replace all search so they won't need to utilize google anymore.

manigandham 8y ago
So they’re going to build their own search engine? Siri doesn’t do anything outside of your own data.
- eanzenberg 8y ago
  It's called "siri suggested website" or "siri knowledge" when I search in Safari.
- perfect_wave 8y ago
  What if Apple bought Duckduckgo?
  - jtd514 8y ago
    Then they still need to build a search engine, DuckDuckGo is just a proxy for google.
    - moron4hire 8y ago
      It's a lot more than "just" a proxy.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - saagarjha 8y ago
      > DuckDuckGo is just a proxy for google Bing, I thought?
      - mirimir 8y ago
        I know that Startpage uses Google. And Searx uses Bing. But I think that DuckDuckGo uses multiple sources. Although it's easy to restrict that to Google.
    - diffeomorphism 8y ago
      They also have their own crawler https://duckduckgo.com/duckduckbot https://duckduckgo.com/duckduckbot and additionally use several hundred "sources" for their results https://duck.co/help/results/sources https://duck.co/help/results/sources with the main source seeming to be bing. I don't think google is one of these sources.
    - yellowapple 8y ago
      No it's not. If anything it's a proxy for Bing, but that's one of many data sources[0] (another of which being DDG's own crawler[1]). I'm not aware of Google actually being one of those data sources; you might be thinking of StartPage, which is a proxy for Google. [0]: https://duck.co/help/results/sources https://duck.co/help/results/sources [1]: https://duckduckgo.com/duckduckbot https://duckduckgo.com/duckduckbot
ChuckMcM 8y ago
Siri isn't a search engine, it is a front end to a search engine[1]. That used to be Bing but now it is Google (see: http://fortune.com/2017/09/25/google-bing-default-iphone/ http://fortune.com/2017/09/25/google-bing-default-iphone/) There was a time when the Siri folks approached Blekko (which was an actual search engine with its own index, crawler, and ranking Etc. to discuss partnering with Apple (personally I think they should have bought us :-)) But, according to people who should know, there was a cultural mental block at Apple about providing web services at the time. The biggest thing like that they had done was Apple Maps and it was a 'mixed' success. Apple didn't see itself as being a search company. I used to point out that Microsoft had a phone (Nokia), an operating system (Windows Phone), and a search engine. Google had a phone (Nexus), an operating system (Android), and a search engine. Apple had a phone (iPhone) and an operating system (iOS). Since that time Microsoft dropped the OS and phone, and Apple never did build a real search engine. [1] More precisely it is a front end to a simple knowledge base, a local index of things on your device, and when those things are exhausted an internet search engine.
- eanzenberg 8y ago
  In safari, when you enter terms into the search bar, the "google suggestions" is separate from "siri knowledge" or "siri suggested website" which they surface at the top. It looks like Apple generates that independent of google
  - why_only_15 8y ago
    Siri suggested website is based on what your device knows about you (that is never uploaded from your device).
    - eanzenberg 8y ago
      and if you select a link through siri, google doesn't get your query (data).
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
twoodfin 8y ago
Not under protest, but for profit. The current figures are not public, but Google pays billions annually to Apple to remain the default search engine on iOS.
- Kye 8y ago
  It's easy to change, and one of the default options is DuckDuckGo.
- eanzenberg 8y ago
  Do you think aapl needs google's "billions"? No, they're making way more money selling "privacy" and building a solid search engine to replace google is high priority for them.
  - IntelMiner 8y ago
    >and building a solid search engine to replace google is high priority for them. What are you basing that on, exactly? Apple doesn't exist in a market simply to "be" in that market. That's why they jettisoned things like their Airport routers
    - ptd 8y ago
      Why does apple exist in a market? Say phones or laptops? Not calling you out, genuinely curious to your opinion.

burtonator 8y ago

Data wars is an understatement. Facebook is AMAZINGLY litigious on its data. Do this. Create a fake company and say you wrote a spider to index Facebook public profile data and that you have like say 100GB .... Watch how fast you get sued by Facebook. Mind you this is public data that EVERYONE can see...

ddtaylor 8y ago
> Do this ... get sued by Facebook. "It's a bold strategy, Cotton, let's see if it pays off for him"
aasasd 8y ago
> public data that EVERYONE can see The entire concept of law is based on the premise that not everything that is physically possible should be permitted.
- kd0amg 8y ago
  The web makes things interesting in that OP's hypothetical company only has that data because Facebook willingly gives it to everyone who asks. It would be obviously wrong if they were using some exploit to trick Facebook's servers into divulging secrets.
  - aasasd 8y ago
    > gives it to everyone who asks Yeah nah, that's where the concept of agreements comes in. You walk up to Fes Boock and say: ― I want to have business with Fes Boock. ― Fes Boock will have business with you if you promise to not stab Fes Boock in the back. ― I give my word to not stab Fes Boock in the back. Turns out, this thing is so valuable, it's supported by law everywhere that I know of, in multiple forms, including rather implicit ones such as “ToS.” Which is what allows Fes to sue the stabbing bastard.
    - landryraccoon 8y ago
      To my knowledge making an HTTP GET request and then receiving a document does not involve agreeing to any TOS, implicitly or otherwise. If the server didn’t want to send the data over an authenticated channel, then why does it send the data?