5 ms·

No, they're not flechettes. According to the manufacturer, the projectiles are tungsten spheres. https://www.gd-ots.com/munitions/large-caliber-ammunition/120

No, they're not flechettes. According to the manufacturer, the projectiles are tungsten spheres. https://www.gd-ots.com/munitions/large-caliber-ammunition/120mm-m1028/ https://www.gd-ots.com/munitions/large-caliber-ammunition/12... (There's even a sales brochure.)

AWildC182 8y ago
Wonder why titanium? It's relatively light so it'll slow down with air resistance very quickly. It's like shooting aluminum spheres but harder. Edit: op misquoted the page. They're tungsten which would be more in line with what I'd expect. Tungsten in both very heavy (ever heavier than lead) and very very hard.
- ThrowawayR2 8y ago
  That was a typo on my part, which I've fixed; thanks for pointing it out. They're tungsten spheres.
mooman219 8y ago
Honestly I'm surprised that a military ordinance page is so clean and straight forward. It also feels a little strange to see marketing material for military weapons.
- nogbit 8y ago
  Surprised? You shouldn't be, it's a big business/industry and it's legal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companies_by_arms_sales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companies_by_arms_sales
- AWildC182 8y ago
  You'd be surprised how much stuff you can find. Google just about any weapons system using the right terminology and you'll be greeted with brochures and high level datasheets galore.
- samstave 8y ago
  In ~1992/93 I lived in Reno Nevada. Around the corner from my house was a gun store, owned by this Chinese guy. I liked guns and military stuff (my brother is Colonel in USAF) and so I would go in there quite frequently. And I was on friendly terms with the owner... He had a huge cannon that you could pay him $500 to drive out into the desert and shoot [0] I was 17, it was early 90s and Nevada. He had just imported two shipping containers of new (mfr date 1968) Chinese made SKS rifles and was having a special on them, $99. I bought one - and was talking to the guy and he pulled out a three ring binder and said "want to see what that can do?" And he opened it up and he had effectively a catalog of pictures of the fatal wounds various weapon rounds would cause. (pictures of dead people) I was deeply disturbed. I never went back in there... (He also offered to sell me claymore mines which he had up on the top shelf all around the store... [THIS SIDE TOWARD ENEMY]) [0] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/61-K_Automatic_Anti-Air_Cannon.JPG https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/61-K_Aut...
  - gcb0 8y ago
    what's your expectations from guns exactly then?
    - samstave 8y ago
      I didnt mean it like that - I enjoy guns, and knowing how to use them, be safe with them etc... But pre-internet, actual printed out physical pictures which were developed in a 3-ring binder to a 17-year-old in 1992 was a disturbing dose of reality.
      - faces_of_death 8y ago
        I dunno. I think you’re making a big deal out of nothing. This kind of stuff has always been around, even pre-internet. Granted, high school kids in the 90’s enjoyed a bit more shelter, but it was also the heyday of hardcore punk and death metal, and I had tons of friends who reveled in repugnant underground media, especially the rarities that only boutique city shops could supply.
    - 8y ago
- RankingMember 8y ago
  I was almost expecting to scroll down and see product reviews.
- robodale 8y ago
  "Tired of Sticky Infantry Concentrations Clogging The Movement of Your M1 Abrams Tank?"
  - smacktoward 8y ago
    TANK COMMANDER (looking exasperated): “There’s Got to Be a Better Way!”
    - moron4hire 8y ago
      (opens a wooden cabinet inside the tank and a bunch of miniature soldiers, too many to fit in the cabinet, fall out on his face)
- nate_meurer 8y ago
  Check out the big weapons expos like IDEX in Abu Dhabi, or SOFEX in Jordan. Full of glitzy polished consumer-oriented display booths showing off the most advanced and modern ways to kill people and fuck shit up. Watch high-level military officials and politicians from despotic oil-world countries shopping for weapons like suburban husbands shopping for patio furniture at a home and garden show. Displays and sales pitches tuned to key in on bogey-men-du-jour. Worried by Iraninan-sponsored insurgency? We've got Just. The. Thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_3Qg-SADY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_3Qg-SADY https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/wdjypy/sofex-the-business-of-war-part-1 https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/wdjypy/sofex-the-business...
  - secfirstmd 8y ago
    True. I've been to a few and its surreal. The other weird site that is how much money is spent on crap, that's clearly crap. Even with my fairly limited military experience, it's easy to walk around a show and see so much expensive junk you know that a government will pay waaayy too much money for and some soldier will get stung with. Everything from cheaply made webbing that would fall apart in seconds, CBRN kit I wouldn't wear to a pub incase Guinness farts accidentally dissolved it, useless ballistic protection, overly elaborate radio systems that don't work, good awful weapons that jam even completely clean w/o rounds in them testing at a show...you name it. So much military crapware out there
    - nate_meurer 8y ago
      LOL, fascinating. Normally I frown on scammy purveyors of overpriced shit, but in this case I'm all in favor of it.
- twic 8y ago
  Perhaps you will enjoy this infomercial for the Bofors 3P round: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wewaCdSW4yc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wewaCdSW4yc
- mikeash 8y ago
  Ride the DC Metro, especially around the Pentagon, and you’ll see lots of ads for various military hardware. It’s always a bit surreal seeing a poster advertising a stealth destroyer or a fighter jet.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
PhasmaFelis 8y ago
> for close-in defense of tanks against massed assaulting infantry attack Do modern tanks frequently face massed infantry charges? (I know, I'm being way too literal, I was just amused by the image of a bunch of guys with Lee-Enfield rifles and pot helmets surging out of a trench to assault an Abrams.)
- greedo 8y ago
  Until recently, there was no suitable ammo for the main gun of the Abrams to counter infantry. It has multiple machine guns, but there are times when you really want to make a point.
  - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
    Maybe this is a dumb question, but would an HE round in the general area not get the point across? (I just googled for the ammo types available to the Abrams, and I learned that the latest-version multipurpose HEAT round has a fucking anti-aircraft mode, which enables a proximity fuse and a puff of black smoke on detonation, so you can track your shot WW2 flak-style. I know it's for helicopters, not planes, but still. Crazy.)
    - steve19 8y ago
      Same reason people use a shotgun for home defense not a grenade! Limited penetration. much lower required accuracy. If you miss you don't send a shell in a random direction. You can shoot at targets very close to the tank barrel.
    - greedo 8y ago
      At the time, there were only two main gun rounds, APFSDS and HEAT. Both are designed for destroying armored vehicles, and don't really explode like a Hollywood artillery round. APFSDS fires a DU dart at it's target, and HEAT is a shaped charged designed to penetrate armor with a plasma jet.
- roel_v 8y ago
  Wasn't that one of the main MOP's for Russian infantry to attack German tanks in WW2? Run up to it, stick a grenade in a weak spot, run away as fast as you could? I assume modern tanks would be quite different from WW2 tanks, but still - someone has done it before.

AWildC182 8y ago

Wonder why titanium? It's relatively light so it'll slow down with air resistance very quickly. It's like shooting aluminum spheres but harder. Edit: op misquoted the page. They're tungsten which would be more in line with what I'd expect. Tungsten in both very heavy (ever heavier than lead) and very very hard.

ThrowawayR2 8y ago
That was a typo on my part, which I've fixed; thanks for pointing it out. They're tungsten spheres.

mooman219 8y ago

Honestly I'm surprised that a military ordinance page is so clean and straight forward. It also feels a little strange to see marketing material for military weapons.

nogbit 8y ago
Surprised? You shouldn't be, it's a big business/industry and it's legal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companies_by_arms_sales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companies_by_arms_sales
AWildC182 8y ago
You'd be surprised how much stuff you can find. Google just about any weapons system using the right terminology and you'll be greeted with brochures and high level datasheets galore.
samstave 8y ago
In ~1992/93 I lived in Reno Nevada. Around the corner from my house was a gun store, owned by this Chinese guy. I liked guns and military stuff (my brother is Colonel in USAF) and so I would go in there quite frequently. And I was on friendly terms with the owner... He had a huge cannon that you could pay him $500 to drive out into the desert and shoot [0] I was 17, it was early 90s and Nevada. He had just imported two shipping containers of new (mfr date 1968) Chinese made SKS rifles and was having a special on them, $99. I bought one - and was talking to the guy and he pulled out a three ring binder and said "want to see what that can do?" And he opened it up and he had effectively a catalog of pictures of the fatal wounds various weapon rounds would cause. (pictures of dead people) I was deeply disturbed. I never went back in there... (He also offered to sell me claymore mines which he had up on the top shelf all around the store... [THIS SIDE TOWARD ENEMY]) [0] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/61-K_Automatic_Anti-Air_Cannon.JPG https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/61-K_Aut...
- gcb0 8y ago
  what's your expectations from guns exactly then?
  - samstave 8y ago
    I didnt mean it like that - I enjoy guns, and knowing how to use them, be safe with them etc... But pre-internet, actual printed out physical pictures which were developed in a 3-ring binder to a 17-year-old in 1992 was a disturbing dose of reality.
    - faces_of_death 8y ago
      I dunno. I think you’re making a big deal out of nothing. This kind of stuff has always been around, even pre-internet. Granted, high school kids in the 90’s enjoyed a bit more shelter, but it was also the heyday of hardcore punk and death metal, and I had tons of friends who reveled in repugnant underground media, especially the rarities that only boutique city shops could supply.
  - 8y ago
RankingMember 8y ago
I was almost expecting to scroll down and see product reviews.
robodale 8y ago
"Tired of Sticky Infantry Concentrations Clogging The Movement of Your M1 Abrams Tank?"
- smacktoward 8y ago
  TANK COMMANDER (looking exasperated): “There’s Got to Be a Better Way!”
  - moron4hire 8y ago
    (opens a wooden cabinet inside the tank and a bunch of miniature soldiers, too many to fit in the cabinet, fall out on his face)
nate_meurer 8y ago
Check out the big weapons expos like IDEX in Abu Dhabi, or SOFEX in Jordan. Full of glitzy polished consumer-oriented display booths showing off the most advanced and modern ways to kill people and fuck shit up. Watch high-level military officials and politicians from despotic oil-world countries shopping for weapons like suburban husbands shopping for patio furniture at a home and garden show. Displays and sales pitches tuned to key in on bogey-men-du-jour. Worried by Iraninan-sponsored insurgency? We've got Just. The. Thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_3Qg-SADY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_3Qg-SADY https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/wdjypy/sofex-the-business-of-war-part-1 https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/wdjypy/sofex-the-business...
- secfirstmd 8y ago
  True. I've been to a few and its surreal. The other weird site that is how much money is spent on crap, that's clearly crap. Even with my fairly limited military experience, it's easy to walk around a show and see so much expensive junk you know that a government will pay waaayy too much money for and some soldier will get stung with. Everything from cheaply made webbing that would fall apart in seconds, CBRN kit I wouldn't wear to a pub incase Guinness farts accidentally dissolved it, useless ballistic protection, overly elaborate radio systems that don't work, good awful weapons that jam even completely clean w/o rounds in them testing at a show...you name it. So much military crapware out there
  - nate_meurer 8y ago
    LOL, fascinating. Normally I frown on scammy purveyors of overpriced shit, but in this case I'm all in favor of it.
twic 8y ago
Perhaps you will enjoy this infomercial for the Bofors 3P round: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wewaCdSW4yc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wewaCdSW4yc
mikeash 8y ago
Ride the DC Metro, especially around the Pentagon, and you’ll see lots of ads for various military hardware. It’s always a bit surreal seeing a poster advertising a stealth destroyer or a fighter jet.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

PhasmaFelis 8y ago

> for close-in defense of tanks against massed assaulting infantry attack Do modern tanks frequently face massed infantry charges? (I know, I'm being way too literal, I was just amused by the image of a bunch of guys with Lee-Enfield rifles and pot helmets surging out of a trench to assault an Abrams.)

greedo 8y ago
Until recently, there was no suitable ammo for the main gun of the Abrams to counter infantry. It has multiple machine guns, but there are times when you really want to make a point.
- PhasmaFelis 8y ago
  Maybe this is a dumb question, but would an HE round in the general area not get the point across? (I just googled for the ammo types available to the Abrams, and I learned that the latest-version multipurpose HEAT round has a fucking anti-aircraft mode, which enables a proximity fuse and a puff of black smoke on detonation, so you can track your shot WW2 flak-style. I know it's for helicopters, not planes, but still. Crazy.)
  - steve19 8y ago
    Same reason people use a shotgun for home defense not a grenade! Limited penetration. much lower required accuracy. If you miss you don't send a shell in a random direction. You can shoot at targets very close to the tank barrel.
  - greedo 8y ago
    At the time, there were only two main gun rounds, APFSDS and HEAT. Both are designed for destroying armored vehicles, and don't really explode like a Hollywood artillery round. APFSDS fires a DU dart at it's target, and HEAT is a shaped charged designed to penetrate armor with a plasma jet.
roel_v 8y ago
Wasn't that one of the main MOP's for Russian infantry to attack German tanks in WW2? Run up to it, stick a grenade in a weak spot, run away as fast as you could? I assume modern tanks would be quite different from WW2 tanks, but still - someone has done it before.