4 ms·

> Tanks began to fire 120-millimeter canister rounds (in essence, shotgun-type rounds that, once fired, open into hundreds of tiny pieces) down streets from the

> Tanks began to fire 120-millimeter canister rounds (in essence, shotgun-type rounds that, once fired, open into hundreds of tiny pieces) down streets from their main guns. Are the resulting pieces effectively flechettes but lawful?

iaw 8y ago
I'm sorry, but where aren't flechettes lawful? Canister rounds, from my knowledge, result in ball projectiles (ballistic flight) while flechettes are finned (aerodynamic flight).
- howard941 8y ago
  I didn't think they were lawful but this book review says I was mistaken: https://www.lawfareblog.com/deadly-metal-rain-legality-flechette-weapons-international-law-eitan-barak https://www.lawfareblog.com/deadly-metal-rain-legality-flech...
  - celticninja 8y ago
    I thought that using plastic flechettes was illegal because you can't x-ray to find and remove them.
ThrowawayR2 8y ago
No, they're not flechettes. According to the manufacturer, the projectiles are tungsten spheres. https://www.gd-ots.com/munitions/large-caliber-ammunition/120mm-m1028/ https://www.gd-ots.com/munitions/large-caliber-ammunition/12... (There's even a sales brochure.)
- AWildC182 8y ago
  Wonder why titanium? It's relatively light so it'll slow down with air resistance very quickly. It's like shooting aluminum spheres but harder. Edit: op misquoted the page. They're tungsten which would be more in line with what I'd expect. Tungsten in both very heavy (ever heavier than lead) and very very hard.
  - ThrowawayR2 8y ago
    That was a typo on my part, which I've fixed; thanks for pointing it out. They're tungsten spheres.
- mooman219 8y ago
  Honestly I'm surprised that a military ordinance page is so clean and straight forward. It also feels a little strange to see marketing material for military weapons.
  - nogbit 8y ago
    Surprised? You shouldn't be, it's a big business/industry and it's legal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companies_by_arms_sales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companies_by_arms_sales
  - AWildC182 8y ago
    You'd be surprised how much stuff you can find. Google just about any weapons system using the right terminology and you'll be greeted with brochures and high level datasheets galore.
  - samstave 8y ago
    In ~1992/93 I lived in Reno Nevada. Around the corner from my house was a gun store, owned by this Chinese guy. I liked guns and military stuff (my brother is Colonel in USAF) and so I would go in there quite frequently. And I was on friendly terms with the owner... He had a huge cannon that you could pay him $500 to drive out into the desert and shoot [0] I was 17, it was early 90s and Nevada. He had just imported two shipping containers of new (mfr date 1968) Chinese made SKS rifles and was having a special on them, $99. I bought one - and was talking to the guy and he pulled out a three ring binder and said "want to see what that can do?" And he opened it up and he had effectively a catalog of pictures of the fatal wounds various weapon rounds would cause. (pictures of dead people) I was deeply disturbed. I never went back in there... (He also offered to sell me claymore mines which he had up on the top shelf all around the store... [THIS SIDE TOWARD ENEMY]) [0] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/61-K_Automatic_Anti-Air_Cannon.JPG https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/61-K_Aut...
    - gcb0 8y ago
      what's your expectations from guns exactly then?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- PhasmaFelis 8y ago
  > for close-in defense of tanks against massed assaulting infantry attack Do modern tanks frequently face massed infantry charges? (I know, I'm being way too literal, I was just amused by the image of a bunch of guys with Lee-Enfield rifles and pot helmets surging out of a trench to assault an Abrams.)
  - greedo 8y ago
    Until recently, there was no suitable ammo for the main gun of the Abrams to counter infantry. It has multiple machine guns, but there are times when you really want to make a point.
    - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
      Maybe this is a dumb question, but would an HE round in the general area not get the point across? (I just googled for the ammo types available to the Abrams, and I learned that the latest-version multipurpose HEAT round has a fucking anti-aircraft mode, which enables a proximity fuse and a puff of black smoke on detonation, so you can track your shot WW2 flak-style. I know it's for helicopters, not planes, but still. Crazy.)
      - steve19 8y ago
        Same reason people use a shotgun for home defense not a grenade! Limited penetration. much lower required accuracy. If you miss you don't send a shell in a random direction. You can shoot at targets very close to the tank barrel.
      - greedo 8y ago
        At the time, there were only two main gun rounds, APFSDS and HEAT. Both are designed for destroying armored vehicles, and don't really explode like a Hollywood artillery round. APFSDS fires a DU dart at it's target, and HEAT is a shaped charged designed to penetrate armor with a plasma jet.
  - roel_v 8y ago
    Wasn't that one of the main MOP's for Russian infantry to attack German tanks in WW2? Run up to it, stick a grenade in a weak spot, run away as fast as you could? I assume modern tanks would be quite different from WW2 tanks, but still - someone has done it before.
bradford 8y ago
I think the resulting pieces are simply fragments of metal. Better resembling buckshot or small metal bits than flechettes. i.e., more like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragmentation_(weaponry) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragmentation_(weaponry) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_shell#Buckshot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_shell#Buckshot and less like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flechette https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flechette
ivanhoe 8y ago
Resulting pieces are over a thousand tungsten balls that just wipe out everything in front of the tank up to a 500m.

iaw 8y ago

I'm sorry, but where aren't flechettes lawful? Canister rounds, from my knowledge, result in ball projectiles (ballistic flight) while flechettes are finned (aerodynamic flight).

howard941 8y ago
I didn't think they were lawful but this book review says I was mistaken: https://www.lawfareblog.com/deadly-metal-rain-legality-flechette-weapons-international-law-eitan-barak https://www.lawfareblog.com/deadly-metal-rain-legality-flech...
- celticninja 8y ago
  I thought that using plastic flechettes was illegal because you can't x-ray to find and remove them.

ThrowawayR2 8y ago

No, they're not flechettes. According to the manufacturer, the projectiles are tungsten spheres. https://www.gd-ots.com/munitions/large-caliber-ammunition/120mm-m1028/ https://www.gd-ots.com/munitions/large-caliber-ammunition/12... (There's even a sales brochure.)

AWildC182 8y ago
Wonder why titanium? It's relatively light so it'll slow down with air resistance very quickly. It's like shooting aluminum spheres but harder. Edit: op misquoted the page. They're tungsten which would be more in line with what I'd expect. Tungsten in both very heavy (ever heavier than lead) and very very hard.
- ThrowawayR2 8y ago
  That was a typo on my part, which I've fixed; thanks for pointing it out. They're tungsten spheres.
mooman219 8y ago
Honestly I'm surprised that a military ordinance page is so clean and straight forward. It also feels a little strange to see marketing material for military weapons.
- nogbit 8y ago
  Surprised? You shouldn't be, it's a big business/industry and it's legal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companies_by_arms_sales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companies_by_arms_sales
- AWildC182 8y ago
  You'd be surprised how much stuff you can find. Google just about any weapons system using the right terminology and you'll be greeted with brochures and high level datasheets galore.
- samstave 8y ago
  In ~1992/93 I lived in Reno Nevada. Around the corner from my house was a gun store, owned by this Chinese guy. I liked guns and military stuff (my brother is Colonel in USAF) and so I would go in there quite frequently. And I was on friendly terms with the owner... He had a huge cannon that you could pay him $500 to drive out into the desert and shoot [0] I was 17, it was early 90s and Nevada. He had just imported two shipping containers of new (mfr date 1968) Chinese made SKS rifles and was having a special on them, $99. I bought one - and was talking to the guy and he pulled out a three ring binder and said "want to see what that can do?" And he opened it up and he had effectively a catalog of pictures of the fatal wounds various weapon rounds would cause. (pictures of dead people) I was deeply disturbed. I never went back in there... (He also offered to sell me claymore mines which he had up on the top shelf all around the store... [THIS SIDE TOWARD ENEMY]) [0] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/61-K_Automatic_Anti-Air_Cannon.JPG https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/61-K_Aut...
  - gcb0 8y ago
    what's your expectations from guns exactly then?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
PhasmaFelis 8y ago
> for close-in defense of tanks against massed assaulting infantry attack Do modern tanks frequently face massed infantry charges? (I know, I'm being way too literal, I was just amused by the image of a bunch of guys with Lee-Enfield rifles and pot helmets surging out of a trench to assault an Abrams.)
- greedo 8y ago
  Until recently, there was no suitable ammo for the main gun of the Abrams to counter infantry. It has multiple machine guns, but there are times when you really want to make a point.
  - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
    Maybe this is a dumb question, but would an HE round in the general area not get the point across? (I just googled for the ammo types available to the Abrams, and I learned that the latest-version multipurpose HEAT round has a fucking anti-aircraft mode, which enables a proximity fuse and a puff of black smoke on detonation, so you can track your shot WW2 flak-style. I know it's for helicopters, not planes, but still. Crazy.)
    - steve19 8y ago
      Same reason people use a shotgun for home defense not a grenade! Limited penetration. much lower required accuracy. If you miss you don't send a shell in a random direction. You can shoot at targets very close to the tank barrel.
    - greedo 8y ago
      At the time, there were only two main gun rounds, APFSDS and HEAT. Both are designed for destroying armored vehicles, and don't really explode like a Hollywood artillery round. APFSDS fires a DU dart at it's target, and HEAT is a shaped charged designed to penetrate armor with a plasma jet.
- roel_v 8y ago
  Wasn't that one of the main MOP's for Russian infantry to attack German tanks in WW2? Run up to it, stick a grenade in a weak spot, run away as fast as you could? I assume modern tanks would be quite different from WW2 tanks, but still - someone has done it before.

bradford 8y ago

I think the resulting pieces are simply fragments of metal. Better resembling buckshot or small metal bits than flechettes. i.e., more like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragmentation_(weaponry) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragmentation_(weaponry) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_shell#Buckshot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_shell#Buckshot and less like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flechette https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flechette

ivanhoe 8y ago

Resulting pieces are over a thousand tungsten balls that just wipe out everything in front of the tank up to a 500m.