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South Korea and Sweden are the most innovative countries in the world

50 points by starpilot 8y ago

throwaway_45 8y ago
The US is not in the top 10. Despite being the country the most people want to come to. It has by far the most unicorns. More than the next three combined. They ding the US for education. Does it really matter when people want to come here?
- ranchpredictor 8y ago
  US never does well in these kinds of rankings lol
- deogeo 8y ago
  It matters for those starting in the US. The US may have excellent universities, but not elementary education.
- foobaw 8y ago
  I feel like the exclusion of the US is the norm in a lot of these rankings just to have that shock factor.
- mbrodersen 8y ago
  > Despite being the country the most people want to come to What numbers do you have to back that statement up? Compared with Europe for example?
tanzbaer 8y ago
I hate these articles. Some group decided on a less then meaningful set of criteria to measure how innovative a country is and measures the US outside of the top 10. This is used as the headline. Then it's reported how a different group picked different criteria and puts the US on rank #2 behind Switzerland. Overall benefit of this article is less than zero because it wastes people's time. Of course the US is one of if not the most innovative countries in the world. Everyone with eyes can see that.
- shanghaiaway 8y ago
  Butthurt because Murica isn't #1
  - tnzn 8y ago
    Seems like it. I upvoted when I read the begining, because I came to discuss the problem with the lack of critical stance towards criteria and metrics used to define how innovative a country is, so I thought it was about that, then I found out it was more about chauvinism :(
  - dang 8y ago
    We've banned this account for repeatedly posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- JohnJamesRambo 8y ago
  I live here and don’t feel we are really that innovative anymore. What do you think we are innovating at? Silicon Valley crap that no one really cares about or needs? Or worse, actively harms people? Going to the moon is innovating. Putting scooters everywhere is not innovating. Ignoring climate change is not innovating.
  - magduf 8y ago
    Innovation in some things doesn't seem all that great or useful when you can't even get basic services and infrastructure working properly.
- vincentmarle 8y ago
  When the BART train can’t even show a display of upcoming stations, I sometimes do wonder if I’m in the world’s hotbed of innovation.
  - 8y ago
wenc 8y ago
Before we (inevitably) argue from emotion whether or not the ranking tracks our experience, it's useful to understand what metrics Bloomberg (the index cited in the linked WEF article) includes in their definition of innovation. From a 2015 article [1], it seems that innovation to them is defined as follows: "Bloomberg ranked countries and sovereigns based on their overall ability to innovate and identified the top 50. Six equally weighted metrics were considered and their scores combined to provide an overall score for each country from zero to 100. 1. Research & Development: Research and development expenditure as a percentage of GDP 2. Manufacturing: Manufacturing value-added per capita 3. High-tech companies: Number of domestically domiciled high-tech public companies—such as aerospace and defense, biotechnology, hardware, software, semiconductors, Internet software and services, and renewable energy companies -- as a share of world's total high-tech public companies 4. Postsecondary education: Number of secondary graduates enrolled in postsecondary institutions as a percentage of cohort; percentage of labor force with tertiary degrees; annual science and engineering graduates as a percentage of the labor force and as a percentage of total tertiary graduates 5. Research personnel: Professionals, including Ph.D. students, engaged in R&D per 1 million population 6. Patents: Resident utility patent filings per 1 million population and per $1 million of R&D spent; utility patents granted as a percentage of world total" It doesn't mean their criteria for innovation is objective or correct, but understanding them will hopefully elevate the discussion from just saying the rankings are garbage -- which it well could be, but is a position arising from emotion and not analysis. (I personally don't think rankings are useful, but the underlying data may be) [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-innovative-countries/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-innovative-countries...
- tropo 8y ago
  Lots of those feel sort of tainted by the economic and legal situation. Bloomberg totally left out any measure of citation impact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citation_impact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citation_impact
blake8086 8y ago
Why aren't I using tons of amazing South Korean and Swedish-designed products in my daily life if this is the case? (or jealous of all the great products they seem to have that I don't have access to?)
- wenc 8y ago
  Are consumer products a good metric for innovation? (for some conceptions of innovation -- innovation is very vague) Or more for commercialization?
- HashHishBang 8y ago
  I mean, off the top of my head Samsung is pretty huge and a daily part of life for a lot of people.
  - wenc 8y ago
    Also, folks outside Korea don't generally know this, Samsung is way bigger than just phones, appliances or consumer electronics [1]. It operates businesses in sectors like chipmaking, construction, IT, chemicals, power plants, shipbuilding, etc. If you've seen a Samsung container ship, or a Samsung-built building (Burj Khalifa, Petronas Towers), you'll have gotten a glimpse at their size and scope. Their consumer-facing businesses are just the tip of the iceberg. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung
    - nodesocket 8y ago
      I just got back from a month in Seoul, and was very surprised when I heard that Samsung makes men's suits there. But, come on... Apple, Google, Facebook, Twitter, Tesla, SpaceX, Intel, AMD, Amazon, the US list goes on. Also as somebody that has visited both Sweden and South Korea for extended periods, they both are very pro-America and have an appetite for American consumerism and anything American made.
      - wenc 8y ago
porpoisely 8y ago
Considering how so many awards and lists and rankings are politically driven rather than based on facts or reality, I'll take this with a grain of salt. Just like the two best universities are now british nonsense according to a british run "Times Higher Education". I'm sure there are a lot of great innovation going on in south korea and sweden, but there is no way to measure "innovation". Is US patents really a criteria for innovation ( Samsung has the most US patents after IBM according to the article ). And I'm sure the world economic forum doesn't have an agenda either.
fhood 8y ago
I am genuinely surprised that so many people were upset enough about the US' exclusion from a top 10 most whatever whatevers article that they felt the need to rant about it in the comments. US education statistics suck compared to other developed countries. They have for a long time. So why are we surprised by the results of a list that uses education as one of the factors?
- nshung 8y ago
  I think the reason being that most people here do not share the same definition of what is innovative or not based on the factors weighted by these publications.
Kyragem 8y ago
Can we finally put the statement that high taxes stifle innovation to rest?
bovermyer 8y ago
This seems primarily targeted towards technological innovation. I'd be curious to see a similar index for sociological innovation. By this, I mean systemic experimentation and progress in social systems.
- thatcat 8y ago
  How would sociological innovation be defined and measured?
  - bovermyer 8y ago
    That's an interesting question, and one I'm not qualified to answer. That's part of why I asked the first question.
bcheung 8y ago
I wouldn't say number of patents filed is a good metric for innovation. Patents are more in line with the most bureaucratic and litigious.
- sanxiyn 8y ago
  I agree software patents are pathological, but patents in other fields seem fine. Most South Korean patents are not software anyway. There is also a question of what is the better metric. Number of patents may not be the best, but it seems adequate to me.
imartin2k 8y ago
This post is from early 2018. There is already a new annual ranking. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-22/germany-nearly-catches-korea-as-innovation-champ-u-s-rebounds https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-22/germany-n...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

50 points by starpilot 8y ago

The US is not in the top 10. Despite being the country the most people want to come to. It has by far the most unicorns. More than the next three combined. They ding the US for education. Does it really matter when people want to come here?

ranchpredictor 8y ago
US never does well in these kinds of rankings lol
deogeo 8y ago
It matters for those starting in the US. The US may have excellent universities, but not elementary education.
foobaw 8y ago
I feel like the exclusion of the US is the norm in a lot of these rankings just to have that shock factor.
mbrodersen 8y ago
> Despite being the country the most people want to come to What numbers do you have to back that statement up? Compared with Europe for example?

tanzbaer 8y ago

I hate these articles. Some group decided on a less then meaningful set of criteria to measure how innovative a country is and measures the US outside of the top 10. This is used as the headline. Then it's reported how a different group picked different criteria and puts the US on rank #2 behind Switzerland. Overall benefit of this article is less than zero because it wastes people's time. Of course the US is one of if not the most innovative countries in the world. Everyone with eyes can see that.

shanghaiaway 8y ago
Butthurt because Murica isn't #1
- tnzn 8y ago
  Seems like it. I upvoted when I read the begining, because I came to discuss the problem with the lack of critical stance towards criteria and metrics used to define how innovative a country is, so I thought it was about that, then I found out it was more about chauvinism :(
- dang 8y ago
  We've banned this account for repeatedly posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
JohnJamesRambo 8y ago
I live here and don’t feel we are really that innovative anymore. What do you think we are innovating at? Silicon Valley crap that no one really cares about or needs? Or worse, actively harms people? Going to the moon is innovating. Putting scooters everywhere is not innovating. Ignoring climate change is not innovating.
- magduf 8y ago
  Innovation in some things doesn't seem all that great or useful when you can't even get basic services and infrastructure working properly.
vincentmarle 8y ago
When the BART train can’t even show a display of upcoming stations, I sometimes do wonder if I’m in the world’s hotbed of innovation.
- 8y ago

wenc 8y ago

Before we (inevitably) argue from emotion whether or not the ranking tracks our experience, it's useful to understand what metrics Bloomberg (the index cited in the linked WEF article) includes in their definition of innovation. From a 2015 article [1], it seems that innovation to them is defined as follows: "Bloomberg ranked countries and sovereigns based on their overall ability to innovate and identified the top 50. Six equally weighted metrics were considered and their scores combined to provide an overall score for each country from zero to 100. 1. Research & Development: Research and development expenditure as a percentage of GDP 2. Manufacturing: Manufacturing value-added per capita 3. High-tech companies: Number of domestically domiciled high-tech public companies—such as aerospace and defense, biotechnology, hardware, software, semiconductors, Internet software and services, and renewable energy companies -- as a share of world's total high-tech public companies 4. Postsecondary education: Number of secondary graduates enrolled in postsecondary institutions as a percentage of cohort; percentage of labor force with tertiary degrees; annual science and engineering graduates as a percentage of the labor force and as a percentage of total tertiary graduates 5. Research personnel: Professionals, including Ph.D. students, engaged in R&D per 1 million population 6. Patents: Resident utility patent filings per 1 million population and per $1 million of R&D spent; utility patents granted as a percentage of world total" It doesn't mean their criteria for innovation is objective or correct, but understanding them will hopefully elevate the discussion from just saying the rankings are garbage -- which it well could be, but is a position arising from emotion and not analysis. (I personally don't think rankings are useful, but the underlying data may be) [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-innovative-countries/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-innovative-countries...

tropo 8y ago
Lots of those feel sort of tainted by the economic and legal situation. Bloomberg totally left out any measure of citation impact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citation_impact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citation_impact

blake8086 8y ago

Why aren't I using tons of amazing South Korean and Swedish-designed products in my daily life if this is the case? (or jealous of all the great products they seem to have that I don't have access to?)

wenc 8y ago
Are consumer products a good metric for innovation? (for some conceptions of innovation -- innovation is very vague) Or more for commercialization?
HashHishBang 8y ago
I mean, off the top of my head Samsung is pretty huge and a daily part of life for a lot of people.
- wenc 8y ago
  Also, folks outside Korea don't generally know this, Samsung is way bigger than just phones, appliances or consumer electronics [1]. It operates businesses in sectors like chipmaking, construction, IT, chemicals, power plants, shipbuilding, etc. If you've seen a Samsung container ship, or a Samsung-built building (Burj Khalifa, Petronas Towers), you'll have gotten a glimpse at their size and scope. Their consumer-facing businesses are just the tip of the iceberg. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung
  - nodesocket 8y ago
    I just got back from a month in Seoul, and was very surprised when I heard that Samsung makes men's suits there. But, come on... Apple, Google, Facebook, Twitter, Tesla, SpaceX, Intel, AMD, Amazon, the US list goes on. Also as somebody that has visited both Sweden and South Korea for extended periods, they both are very pro-America and have an appetite for American consumerism and anything American made.
    - wenc 8y ago

porpoisely 8y ago

Considering how so many awards and lists and rankings are politically driven rather than based on facts or reality, I'll take this with a grain of salt. Just like the two best universities are now british nonsense according to a british run "Times Higher Education". I'm sure there are a lot of great innovation going on in south korea and sweden, but there is no way to measure "innovation". Is US patents really a criteria for innovation ( Samsung has the most US patents after IBM according to the article ). And I'm sure the world economic forum doesn't have an agenda either.

fhood 8y ago

I am genuinely surprised that so many people were upset enough about the US' exclusion from a top 10 most whatever whatevers article that they felt the need to rant about it in the comments. US education statistics suck compared to other developed countries. They have for a long time. So why are we surprised by the results of a list that uses education as one of the factors?

nshung 8y ago
I think the reason being that most people here do not share the same definition of what is innovative or not based on the factors weighted by these publications.

Kyragem 8y ago

Can we finally put the statement that high taxes stifle innovation to rest?

bovermyer 8y ago

This seems primarily targeted towards technological innovation. I'd be curious to see a similar index for sociological innovation. By this, I mean systemic experimentation and progress in social systems.

thatcat 8y ago
How would sociological innovation be defined and measured?
- bovermyer 8y ago
  That's an interesting question, and one I'm not qualified to answer. That's part of why I asked the first question.

bcheung 8y ago

I wouldn't say number of patents filed is a good metric for innovation. Patents are more in line with the most bureaucratic and litigious.

sanxiyn 8y ago
I agree software patents are pathological, but patents in other fields seem fine. Most South Korean patents are not software anyway. There is also a question of what is the better metric. Number of patents may not be the best, but it seems adequate to me.

imartin2k 8y ago

This post is from early 2018. There is already a new annual ranking. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-22/germany-nearly-catches-korea-as-innovation-champ-u-s-rebounds https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-22/germany-n...

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]