10 ms·

ICE set up a fake university; 100s enrolled, not realizing it was a sting op

45 points by malshe 8y ago

notacoward 8y ago
Might as well say the same thing here that I said on Twitter: this is a waste of government resources for the sake of being mean. ICE has a charter - to investigate and infiltrate border-crossing crime groups. Drugs, human trafficking, money laundering, that kind of thing. This particular op had no chance of finding anything like that. It was targeted at people who posed no harm to anybody. Yes, maybe it could have caught a few of the people ICE is supposed to be looking for, but almost by accident. The price in both dollars and in liberty was too high for that to be a strategy, and there's no way that was even in the minds of the people who planned or implemented it. ICE as it exists should be abolished. Even some ICE old-timers who were doing its real work say so. A new agency with ICE's original charter would be a reasonable thing to have, but there's no way to get that under the current structure.
- nahzgah 8y ago
  >A new agency with ICE's original charter would be a reasonable thing to have, but there's no way to get that under the current structure. One of the strong points of the current president is kicking out illegals, so it could be argued that abolishing the ICE would be simply antidemocratic.
  - throwaway98121 8y ago
    Illegals? You mean undocumented residents? Personally I don’t think the president has any strong points other than being a racist, misogenoist, pathological liar, and narcissist.
    - yasp 8y ago
      If you're committing visa fraud you're no longer undocumented and you are indeed there illegally.
      - mcphage 8y ago
        If your visa expires, wouldn't that mean that you're here without valid documentation, ie, undocumented? You were formerly documented, and you have been undocumented.
    - i_am_nomad 8y ago
      Few of them are undocumented. There’s plenty of documentation on them - in schools, emergency rooms, police reports. As you well know, your term “undocumented” is designed to trivialize the border and deprecate the very concept of American citizenship. At a minimum, refer to them as unauthorized immigrants, since that is the distinguishing factor from a public policy perspective.
      - throwaway98121 8y ago
        Labeling people as illegals is merely meant to dehumanize them. I wasn’t trivializing the border and so your response is no more than a straw man.
        nahzgah 8y ago
        No it's not. They are humans who are breaking the law and who shouldn't be in the US. Nobody is saying they are not humans. Just that they don't get to stay in the US without following the process.
        throwaway98121 8y ago
        This is a political talking point to scare poor and uneducated white people. It’s why we are willing to penalize folks who were brought to this country as children and use this future for political gains.
        wuyelubo 8y ago
        Actually, yours is. So far nahzgah & i_am_nomad made logical points, while you just keep writing argumentum ad passiones content. As a legal refugee (not immigrant), I find your comments dehumanizing, racist, pathological lies, and narcissist. I have no idea what is "misogenoist", and I speak several languages. Additionally, you are a classist with your "scare poor and uneducated white people", presuming "poor white people" unable to comprehend complex political talking points. Let's get back to the article, shall we?
        8y ago
    - trothamel 8y ago
      "Undocumented resident" is an even worse euphemism - it's not like these are people who simply lost their papers, or people who were entitled to those papers and just forgot them. These are people who are inside the US in violation of immigration law.
      - throwaway98121 8y ago
        I don’t think it’s a worse euphemism. The people who I see angry about “illegals” are the same ones who think blacks are all criminals and it would be great if we could to to the good old days when blacks were segregated, women didn’t have the right to vote, and white men ruled supreme.
        i_am_nomad 8y ago
        Now who’s dehumanizing people?
        wuyelubo 8y ago
        Could you please stop being a sexist & racist?
- xamuel 8y ago
  Complaining about the executive branch enforcing the law is like complaining to an umpire about the rules of baseball. Want to change the law? That's what legislators are for! The laws in question were put in place long before the current administration took the executive seat.
  - microcolonel 8y ago
    The best way to change a law that reasonable people disagree with, is to enforce it effectively.
    - philipov 8y ago
      So what you're saying is, if a law is enforced and doesn't get changed, the people who disagreed with it were unreasonable all along? How convenient!
      - microcolonel 8y ago
        What I'm saying is that while I don't necessarily agree with the full extent of the policy, I recognize that reasonable people can disagree with it as a whole, and that enforcing it is the best way to demonstrate what's wrong with the policy, rather than demonstrating what's wrong with the enforcement (the effect of selective enforcement).
        philipov 8y ago
        It is a tempting premise: if something is wrong, taking it to its full extent will demonstrate just how wrong it is, causing everyone to unite in striking it down. Justice wins in the end! It is too optimistic to think that being right is enough to effect change. I think that framing the discussion this way will allow people who want to keep the status quo to use survivorship as a basis for legitimacy. When idyllic justice fails and the change doesn't happen, that becomes proof that the status quo was correct all along.
  - watwut 8y ago
- andrewmcwatters 8y ago
  > A new agency with ICE's original charter would be a reasonable thing to have, but there's no way to get that under the current structure. It seems to me that you can run ICE without necessarily having figures like Joe Arpaio or Donald Trump as ideological sponsors while accomplishing the same job. I've read on a few occasions that immigration was even more strictly enforced under Obama's administration, but it was done without xenophobic rhetoric, which seems ideal.
  - microcolonel 8y ago
    > ...but it was done without xenophobic rhetoric, which seems ideal. To anyone who is listening rather than assuming, it seems that the Trump administration has done it without xenophobic rhetoric as well.
- Cenk 8y ago
  The cruelty is the point.
  - microcolonel 8y ago
    > The cruelty is the point. No, it isn't. If you took any time to talk to any of the tremendous number of reasonable, empathic people working at ICE, you could not say that with a straight face. The mandate of ICE is to enforce immigration and customs laws, not to "be cruel to foreigners" or some such. Making a dehumanizing moral caricature of people you disagree with is not helpful to anyone who needs help.
    - perfmode 8y ago
      Cruelty is the point. ICE is not on the right side of history. ICE impersonates the LAPD, making their jobs more difficult. The LAPD has requested they stop doing this. Homeland wants to be separated from ICE because ICE is hurting the broader org’s reputation and making it harder to keep the country safe. ICE is so far off the rails, it is indefensible. Please link me to the tremendous number of reasonable, empathic people working at ICE who are speaking out against the injustices committed by their organization. I'll wait.
    - belltaco 8y ago
      Nice strawman, barely anyone is accusing the rank and file of ICE of cruelty, there might be a few bad apples here and there though. But the cruelty is coming from higher up political appointees like Stephen Miller. Which results in ridiculous bullshit like this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2018/07/11/new-uscis-policy-will-carry-harsh-consequences-for-applicants/#c64759d4615d https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2018/07/11/new-u... Can you tell me how the above situation is not cruel?
      - microcolonel 8y ago
        > https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2018/07/11/new-uscis-policy-will-carry-harsh-consequences-for-applicants/#c64759d4615d* https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2018/07/11/new-u... USCIS is not ICE. When USCIS refers people to ICE (the topic of this article), ICE has their own procedures which have more to do with carrying out immigration and customs law than "cruelty".
- belltaco 8y ago
  Well said. I wish they would actually go after the fraudulent diploma mills and sham universities that exist only for visas. Why not run sting ops against them by posing as students instead of against fricking students trying to maintain immigration status? I lost it at this: >The Department of Homeland Security’s list of certified schools where international students can enroll includes the University of Farmington. I don't know the specifics but can someone explain why this is not entrapment? What next, leave warm blankets near the homeless saying they're free to take and then arrest them for theft? Also DHS's list of certified schools just lost all its meaning and legitimacy. If MIT is on that list it might as well be a fraudulent university for all we know. This kind of shenanigans will just further plummet the already lower university enrollment.
  - humantiy 8y ago
    If you are setting up a sting, wouldn't you want it to look legit as possible? ICE is part of DHS so it makes sense they would add it to their own list if the goal was to catch people attempting to exploit the program. If a student enrolled in this institution, it wouldn't have taken long for them to realize this was a sham and transfer out if they were truly seeking education. I believe it wasn't entrapment because ICE only set up the fake university, they didn't actually recruit people to it. That was other "students/recruiters" who were enrolled and helping others out to join (hence the indictments of the 8 recruiters). Also in there was this in the article: >Khaalid Walls, a spokesman for ICE in Detroit, told local news station WXYZ that the students had entered the United States legally on F-1 visas after being accepted to legitimate schools and had later transferred to the University of Farmington. If they were accepted to legit schools and then transferred to this one it seems likely that they weren't seeking education, but a means to stay here, which would be in violation of the visa.
  - yasp 8y ago
    Enrolling in the school ostensibly isn't illegal per se.
    - belltaco 8y ago
      Can there be civil suits against the government for time and money wasted in enrolling into fake universities that are fraudulently certified as legit? I am struggling to find a good analogy here. Like a fake cop that is certified as legit by the police department? Wouldn't that make him a real cop as far as the law is concerned? How is this a fake univ if it's certified as legit by ICE?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
trothamel 8y ago
I am quite disappointed that they didn't name the place Winston University: https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/winston-university/n9203 https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/winston-univer...
Cenk 8y ago
> ICE, under Trump, is a terrorist organization. https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/27/ice https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/27/ice
- pdpi 8y ago
  From the article: > As the News noted, the undercover investigation seems to have ramped up one month after President Trump took office. While the fake university was set up in 2015, it wasn’t until February 2017 that HSI agents began posing as university officials, the indictment said. The undercover operation, nicknamed “Paper Chase,” continued until earlier this month. The operation was underway in 2015. Whatever else might be said about this, this particular project wasn't started under Trump.
- basic1 8y ago
  This whole discussion reeks of California.
  - dang 8y ago
    We've banned this account for posting unsubstantive comments and breaking the site guidelines. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- rinchik 8y ago
  You realize that operation was "under Obama", right? This is fascinating how gullible a lot of people are, HN readers are no exception. Extreme far-left brainwashing just remarkable
  - Cenk 8y ago
    Did I say the operation was under Trump?
  - dang 8y ago
    Please don't post ideological or political flamebait to HN. It worsens discussion and leads to worse still. This is what we're hoping to avoid on this site. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
jstanley 8y ago
https://outline.com/LnvaMj https://outline.com/LnvaMj
sct202 8y ago
These set-up stings always throw me off a little bit. It's like sure these people are breaking the law, that's clearly wrong. But shouldn't we be fixing the system that isn't good enough to catch fake transcripts and fake schools being submitted, or were any visa applications for this school accepted for the sake of letting ICE catch a few fake students.
- humantiy 8y ago
  That's basically what they did here since "the federal indictments name eight people in eight states who allegedly were students at the school and recruited additional students to enroll." Those were the people who were allegedly helping these people fake the transcripts to commit this fraud.
docdeek 8y ago
Interesting that the article explains this is the same sort of sting that was run in NJ under Obama. Reminds me of those stories of police departments sending 'you won the lottery' announcements to local criminals who had to appear to collect their prize in person...whereupon they were promptly arrested.
- tombert 8y ago
  It's fun to go on LinkedIn and look for "University of Northern New Jersey". There are a lot more people on there then you might think. I find it amusing; I never finished my degree either but I try and be at least up-front about it.
outsidetheparty 8y ago
This is confusing. > eight people who allegedly worked as “recruiters” for the school and collectively helped at least 600 students to remain in the country under false pretenses now face federal conspiracy charges If this was a fake university set up by ICE, why are its employees being charged with conspiracy? (The Detroit News article clarifies that the recruiters did not know it was a fake university) And for that matter, how is this whole thing not crystal-clear entrapment, at least for the "recruiter" employees, if not for the "students" themselves? The Detroit News article, again, quotes a law professor / prosecutor as saying "it's not entrapment": > “The government can put out the bait, but it’s up to the defendants to fall for it.” ...but isn't "putting out the bait" what entrapment is? (That's a sincere, not rhetorical question, I'm not a lawyer and don't play one on TV)
- creaghpatr 8y ago
  It's not entrapment if the crime (being in the country illegally) was already committed.
  - zaroth 8y ago
    No! The crime is not being in the country illegally. The crime is knowingly enrolling in a fake university and claiming student visa status while taking no course work. A sting operation (fake drug buy) is not entrapment. If you walk up to someone and ask them if they want to buy drugs and they do it’s not entrapment. If you threaten them to buy your drugs or pretend you are selling them legal drugs and then hand them something illegal and arrest them, that is entrapment.
    - creaghpatr 8y ago
      It's both.
  - benj111 8y ago
    But (assuming the recruiters weren't in on it), the students could be under the impression they were allowed to stay. And so not have done anything to prevent them being in the country illegally.
zaroth 8y ago
Terrible headline! Students knew that the scheme was illegal “and that discretion should be used when discussing the program with others,” prosecutors wrote in their indictment. This was not a fake university at all. This was a fake fake university. The former would be offensive. The latter is a brilliant sting operation I 100% endorse.
- runn1ng 8y ago
  From the description it sounds like entrapment. Which is why I can't believe it and why I think there is something missing...
  - sp332 8y ago
    Notice they didn't charge the 600 students who enrolled. They charged only 8 of those students who recruited lots of other students. That's kinda shady but it's probably a step removed from entrapment. The article doesn't have anything from the defense's side though.
    - learc83 8y ago
      It also seems like an awful lot of time and money to get 8 indictments.
    - zaroth 8y ago
      But they did arrest and are bringing deportation proceedings against “scores of students”.
      - sp332 8y ago
        Oh I did miss that. That sounds bad considering what was reported last time they did this. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/06/nyregion/students-at-fake-university-say-they-were-collateral-damage-in-sting-operation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/06/nyregion/students-at-fake...
        8y ago
Rambunctious45 8y ago
If the goal of your organization is "to investigate illegal movement of people and goods" (on ICE's website), I would think this would be a safe and effective way to do it.
danpalmer 8y ago
Is entrapment not illegal in the US?
- NotANaN 8y ago
  The law makes a clear distinction between entrapment and opportunity. Setting up a "honeypot" is not entrapment. That's not to say that this was anything other than a waste of time and resources, and a textbook example of what happens when a law enforcement agency is unleashed from regulation.
  - danpalmer 8y ago
    Thanks for the explanation, I hadn't thought about that difference, makes sense.
jwr 8y ago
This makes no sense. If any of the students who enrolled there were illegal immigrants, they should be granted green cards instantly. These are the people who want to learn, work, and better themselves: a clear net benefit to society. [I'm purposefully avoiding the topic of ICE, ethics, and a number of other things here: just wanted to make one point]
- xamuel 8y ago
  Apparently the university had no real classes or campus, so any students who continued to use it to maintain their visa after discovering as much, are clearly not "people who want to learn, work, and better themselves".
- wuyelubo 8y ago
  to expand on xamuel's note, "students" knew from the "recruiters" they would have to do _no_ learning of any sort.
snvzz 8y ago
Paywall warning.
Dayshine 8y ago
Sorry, I'm a little confused here on the 8 recruiters. >The federal indictments name eight people in eight states who allegedly worked as recruiters for the school. All have been arrested and charged with conspiracy to commit visa fraud and harboring aliens for profit. They face a maximum sentence of five years in prison. So ICE employed recruiters, and is now prosecuting them for doing what they were told? A law enforcement agency hired people, required them to break the law (presumably under threat of dismissal), and then intends to jail them for it?
- humantiy 8y ago
  >So ICE employed recruiters The article looks to have made it sound like ICE employed them, but I don't believe that is the case. It seems more likely they (the recruiters) were acting independently getting international students to transfer to the fake school knowing it wasn't a legit school (hence the "pay to stay" statement) and helping them with that process while unaware it was actually setup by ICE.
  - wuyelubo 8y ago
    This seems more plausible. From what I am reading and cross referencing it in other articles, ICE had no immediate relationships of any sort with the "recruiters". The "recruiters" were compensated by the "students", not the fake uni, or ICE.
- zaroth 8y ago
  This makes perfect sense if the recruiters knew they were running a fake university. If a drug dealer hires henchmen to sell their drugs, and under threat of dismissal tells them to move a certain amount of product, the henchmen are still guilty of a crime. If the kingpin is actually the FBI, everyone working for them is still going to jail.
  - Dayshine 8y ago
    Except selling drugs is illegal, recruiting students isn't. Keep in mind their employer was in "The Department of Homeland Security’s list of certified schools". Their work was only illegal because their employer turned out to be "corrupt". And presumably the cover was strong enough that doing your due diligence on your new employer wouldn't raise any red flags. As an employee is it my responsibility to ensure that my day-to-day work hasn't been made illegal due to my employer's actions!?
TorKlingberg 8y ago
How is this not entrapment? Yes, the students knowingly signed up for a fake university and used it for visa application, but the fake university only existed because the government set it up. If people applying for student visas for fake universities is a real problem, why not just compare their applications with a list of real universities? Especially putting the fake uni on DHS’s list of certified schools. Is there a problem of fake unis getting on DHS's list? Otherwise the crime they committed (applying for a visa for a fake university certified by the DHS) would have been literally impossible if DHS/ICE didn't intentionally certify a fake uni.
onetimemanytime 8y ago
Trying to be cute, get press and promoted? ICE and everyone knows damn well where "illegals" are working. No need to spend money on such elaborate ruses to find them.

45 points by malshe 8y ago

Might as well say the same thing here that I said on Twitter: this is a waste of government resources for the sake of being mean. ICE has a charter - to investigate and infiltrate border-crossing crime groups. Drugs, human trafficking, money laundering, that kind of thing. This particular op had no chance of finding anything like that. It was targeted at people who posed no harm to anybody. Yes, maybe it could have caught a few of the people ICE is supposed to be looking for, but almost by accident. The price in both dollars and in liberty was too high for that to be a strategy, and there's no way that was even in the minds of the people who planned or implemented it. ICE as it exists should be abolished. Even some ICE old-timers who were doing its real work say so. A new agency with ICE's original charter would be a reasonable thing to have, but there's no way to get that under the current structure.

nahzgah 8y ago
>A new agency with ICE's original charter would be a reasonable thing to have, but there's no way to get that under the current structure. One of the strong points of the current president is kicking out illegals, so it could be argued that abolishing the ICE would be simply antidemocratic.
- throwaway98121 8y ago
  Illegals? You mean undocumented residents? Personally I don’t think the president has any strong points other than being a racist, misogenoist, pathological liar, and narcissist.
  - yasp 8y ago
    If you're committing visa fraud you're no longer undocumented and you are indeed there illegally.
    - mcphage 8y ago
      If your visa expires, wouldn't that mean that you're here without valid documentation, ie, undocumented? You were formerly documented, and you have been undocumented.
  - i_am_nomad 8y ago
    Few of them are undocumented. There’s plenty of documentation on them - in schools, emergency rooms, police reports. As you well know, your term “undocumented” is designed to trivialize the border and deprecate the very concept of American citizenship. At a minimum, refer to them as unauthorized immigrants, since that is the distinguishing factor from a public policy perspective.
    - throwaway98121 8y ago
      Labeling people as illegals is merely meant to dehumanize them. I wasn’t trivializing the border and so your response is no more than a straw man.
      - nahzgah 8y ago
        No it's not. They are humans who are breaking the law and who shouldn't be in the US. Nobody is saying they are not humans. Just that they don't get to stay in the US without following the process.
        throwaway98121 8y ago
        This is a political talking point to scare poor and uneducated white people. It’s why we are willing to penalize folks who were brought to this country as children and use this future for political gains.
        wuyelubo 8y ago
        Actually, yours is. So far nahzgah & i_am_nomad made logical points, while you just keep writing argumentum ad passiones content. As a legal refugee (not immigrant), I find your comments dehumanizing, racist, pathological lies, and narcissist. I have no idea what is "misogenoist", and I speak several languages. Additionally, you are a classist with your "scare poor and uneducated white people", presuming "poor white people" unable to comprehend complex political talking points. Let's get back to the article, shall we?
      - 8y ago
  - trothamel 8y ago
    "Undocumented resident" is an even worse euphemism - it's not like these are people who simply lost their papers, or people who were entitled to those papers and just forgot them. These are people who are inside the US in violation of immigration law.
    - throwaway98121 8y ago
      I don’t think it’s a worse euphemism. The people who I see angry about “illegals” are the same ones who think blacks are all criminals and it would be great if we could to to the good old days when blacks were segregated, women didn’t have the right to vote, and white men ruled supreme.
      - i_am_nomad 8y ago
        Now who’s dehumanizing people?
      - wuyelubo 8y ago
        Could you please stop being a sexist & racist?
xamuel 8y ago
Complaining about the executive branch enforcing the law is like complaining to an umpire about the rules of baseball. Want to change the law? That's what legislators are for! The laws in question were put in place long before the current administration took the executive seat.
- microcolonel 8y ago
  The best way to change a law that reasonable people disagree with, is to enforce it effectively.
  - philipov 8y ago
    So what you're saying is, if a law is enforced and doesn't get changed, the people who disagreed with it were unreasonable all along? How convenient!
    - microcolonel 8y ago
      What I'm saying is that while I don't necessarily agree with the full extent of the policy, I recognize that reasonable people can disagree with it as a whole, and that enforcing it is the best way to demonstrate what's wrong with the policy, rather than demonstrating what's wrong with the enforcement (the effect of selective enforcement).
      - philipov 8y ago
        It is a tempting premise: if something is wrong, taking it to its full extent will demonstrate just how wrong it is, causing everyone to unite in striking it down. Justice wins in the end! It is too optimistic to think that being right is enough to effect change. I think that framing the discussion this way will allow people who want to keep the status quo to use survivorship as a basis for legitimacy. When idyllic justice fails and the change doesn't happen, that becomes proof that the status quo was correct all along.
- watwut 8y ago
andrewmcwatters 8y ago
> A new agency with ICE's original charter would be a reasonable thing to have, but there's no way to get that under the current structure. It seems to me that you can run ICE without necessarily having figures like Joe Arpaio or Donald Trump as ideological sponsors while accomplishing the same job. I've read on a few occasions that immigration was even more strictly enforced under Obama's administration, but it was done without xenophobic rhetoric, which seems ideal.
- microcolonel 8y ago
  > ...but it was done without xenophobic rhetoric, which seems ideal. To anyone who is listening rather than assuming, it seems that the Trump administration has done it without xenophobic rhetoric as well.
Cenk 8y ago
The cruelty is the point.
- microcolonel 8y ago
  > The cruelty is the point. No, it isn't. If you took any time to talk to any of the tremendous number of reasonable, empathic people working at ICE, you could not say that with a straight face. The mandate of ICE is to enforce immigration and customs laws, not to "be cruel to foreigners" or some such. Making a dehumanizing moral caricature of people you disagree with is not helpful to anyone who needs help.
  - perfmode 8y ago
    Cruelty is the point. ICE is not on the right side of history. ICE impersonates the LAPD, making their jobs more difficult. The LAPD has requested they stop doing this. Homeland wants to be separated from ICE because ICE is hurting the broader org’s reputation and making it harder to keep the country safe. ICE is so far off the rails, it is indefensible. Please link me to the tremendous number of reasonable, empathic people working at ICE who are speaking out against the injustices committed by their organization. I'll wait.
  - belltaco 8y ago
    Nice strawman, barely anyone is accusing the rank and file of ICE of cruelty, there might be a few bad apples here and there though. But the cruelty is coming from higher up political appointees like Stephen Miller. Which results in ridiculous bullshit like this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2018/07/11/new-uscis-policy-will-carry-harsh-consequences-for-applicants/#c64759d4615d https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2018/07/11/new-u... Can you tell me how the above situation is not cruel?
    - microcolonel 8y ago
      > https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2018/07/11/new-uscis-policy-will-carry-harsh-consequences-for-applicants/#c64759d4615d* https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2018/07/11/new-u... USCIS is not ICE. When USCIS refers people to ICE (the topic of this article), ICE has their own procedures which have more to do with carrying out immigration and customs law than "cruelty".
belltaco 8y ago
Well said. I wish they would actually go after the fraudulent diploma mills and sham universities that exist only for visas. Why not run sting ops against them by posing as students instead of against fricking students trying to maintain immigration status? I lost it at this: >The Department of Homeland Security’s list of certified schools where international students can enroll includes the University of Farmington. I don't know the specifics but can someone explain why this is not entrapment? What next, leave warm blankets near the homeless saying they're free to take and then arrest them for theft? Also DHS's list of certified schools just lost all its meaning and legitimacy. If MIT is on that list it might as well be a fraudulent university for all we know. This kind of shenanigans will just further plummet the already lower university enrollment.
- humantiy 8y ago
  If you are setting up a sting, wouldn't you want it to look legit as possible? ICE is part of DHS so it makes sense they would add it to their own list if the goal was to catch people attempting to exploit the program. If a student enrolled in this institution, it wouldn't have taken long for them to realize this was a sham and transfer out if they were truly seeking education. I believe it wasn't entrapment because ICE only set up the fake university, they didn't actually recruit people to it. That was other "students/recruiters" who were enrolled and helping others out to join (hence the indictments of the 8 recruiters). Also in there was this in the article: >Khaalid Walls, a spokesman for ICE in Detroit, told local news station WXYZ that the students had entered the United States legally on F-1 visas after being accepted to legitimate schools and had later transferred to the University of Farmington. If they were accepted to legit schools and then transferred to this one it seems likely that they weren't seeking education, but a means to stay here, which would be in violation of the visa.
- yasp 8y ago
  Enrolling in the school ostensibly isn't illegal per se.
  - belltaco 8y ago
    Can there be civil suits against the government for time and money wasted in enrolling into fake universities that are fraudulently certified as legit? I am struggling to find a good analogy here. Like a fake cop that is certified as legit by the police department? Wouldn't that make him a real cop as far as the law is concerned? How is this a fake univ if it's certified as legit by ICE?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

trothamel 8y ago

I am quite disappointed that they didn't name the place Winston University: https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/winston-university/n9203 https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/winston-univer...

Cenk 8y ago

> ICE, under Trump, is a terrorist organization. https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/27/ice https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/27/ice

pdpi 8y ago
From the article: > As the News noted, the undercover investigation seems to have ramped up one month after President Trump took office. While the fake university was set up in 2015, it wasn’t until February 2017 that HSI agents began posing as university officials, the indictment said. The undercover operation, nicknamed “Paper Chase,” continued until earlier this month. The operation was underway in 2015. Whatever else might be said about this, this particular project wasn't started under Trump.
basic1 8y ago
This whole discussion reeks of California.
- dang 8y ago
  We've banned this account for posting unsubstantive comments and breaking the site guidelines. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
rinchik 8y ago
You realize that operation was "under Obama", right? This is fascinating how gullible a lot of people are, HN readers are no exception. Extreme far-left brainwashing just remarkable
- Cenk 8y ago
  Did I say the operation was under Trump?
- dang 8y ago
  Please don't post ideological or political flamebait to HN. It worsens discussion and leads to worse still. This is what we're hoping to avoid on this site. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

jstanley 8y ago

https://outline.com/LnvaMj https://outline.com/LnvaMj

sct202 8y ago

These set-up stings always throw me off a little bit. It's like sure these people are breaking the law, that's clearly wrong. But shouldn't we be fixing the system that isn't good enough to catch fake transcripts and fake schools being submitted, or were any visa applications for this school accepted for the sake of letting ICE catch a few fake students.

humantiy 8y ago
That's basically what they did here since "the federal indictments name eight people in eight states who allegedly were students at the school and recruited additional students to enroll." Those were the people who were allegedly helping these people fake the transcripts to commit this fraud.

docdeek 8y ago

Interesting that the article explains this is the same sort of sting that was run in NJ under Obama. Reminds me of those stories of police departments sending 'you won the lottery' announcements to local criminals who had to appear to collect their prize in person...whereupon they were promptly arrested.

tombert 8y ago
It's fun to go on LinkedIn and look for "University of Northern New Jersey". There are a lot more people on there then you might think. I find it amusing; I never finished my degree either but I try and be at least up-front about it.

outsidetheparty 8y ago

This is confusing. > eight people who allegedly worked as “recruiters” for the school and collectively helped at least 600 students to remain in the country under false pretenses now face federal conspiracy charges If this was a fake university set up by ICE, why are its employees being charged with conspiracy? (The Detroit News article clarifies that the recruiters did not know it was a fake university) And for that matter, how is this whole thing not crystal-clear entrapment, at least for the "recruiter" employees, if not for the "students" themselves? The Detroit News article, again, quotes a law professor / prosecutor as saying "it's not entrapment": > “The government can put out the bait, but it’s up to the defendants to fall for it.” ...but isn't "putting out the bait" what entrapment is? (That's a sincere, not rhetorical question, I'm not a lawyer and don't play one on TV)

creaghpatr 8y ago
It's not entrapment if the crime (being in the country illegally) was already committed.
- zaroth 8y ago
  No! The crime is not being in the country illegally. The crime is knowingly enrolling in a fake university and claiming student visa status while taking no course work. A sting operation (fake drug buy) is not entrapment. If you walk up to someone and ask them if they want to buy drugs and they do it’s not entrapment. If you threaten them to buy your drugs or pretend you are selling them legal drugs and then hand them something illegal and arrest them, that is entrapment.
  - creaghpatr 8y ago
    It's both.
- benj111 8y ago
  But (assuming the recruiters weren't in on it), the students could be under the impression they were allowed to stay. And so not have done anything to prevent them being in the country illegally.

zaroth 8y ago

Terrible headline! Students knew that the scheme was illegal “and that discretion should be used when discussing the program with others,” prosecutors wrote in their indictment. This was not a fake university at all. This was a fake fake university. The former would be offensive. The latter is a brilliant sting operation I 100% endorse.

runn1ng 8y ago
From the description it sounds like entrapment. Which is why I can't believe it and why I think there is something missing...
- sp332 8y ago
  Notice they didn't charge the 600 students who enrolled. They charged only 8 of those students who recruited lots of other students. That's kinda shady but it's probably a step removed from entrapment. The article doesn't have anything from the defense's side though.
  - learc83 8y ago
    It also seems like an awful lot of time and money to get 8 indictments.
  - zaroth 8y ago
    But they did arrest and are bringing deportation proceedings against “scores of students”.
    - sp332 8y ago
      Oh I did miss that. That sounds bad considering what was reported last time they did this. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/06/nyregion/students-at-fake-university-say-they-were-collateral-damage-in-sting-operation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/06/nyregion/students-at-fake...
      - 8y ago

Rambunctious45 8y ago

If the goal of your organization is "to investigate illegal movement of people and goods" (on ICE's website), I would think this would be a safe and effective way to do it.

danpalmer 8y ago

Is entrapment not illegal in the US?

NotANaN 8y ago
The law makes a clear distinction between entrapment and opportunity. Setting up a "honeypot" is not entrapment. That's not to say that this was anything other than a waste of time and resources, and a textbook example of what happens when a law enforcement agency is unleashed from regulation.
- danpalmer 8y ago
  Thanks for the explanation, I hadn't thought about that difference, makes sense.

jwr 8y ago

This makes no sense. If any of the students who enrolled there were illegal immigrants, they should be granted green cards instantly. These are the people who want to learn, work, and better themselves: a clear net benefit to society. [I'm purposefully avoiding the topic of ICE, ethics, and a number of other things here: just wanted to make one point]

xamuel 8y ago
Apparently the university had no real classes or campus, so any students who continued to use it to maintain their visa after discovering as much, are clearly not "people who want to learn, work, and better themselves".
wuyelubo 8y ago
to expand on xamuel's note, "students" knew from the "recruiters" they would have to do _no_ learning of any sort.

snvzz 8y ago

Paywall warning.

Dayshine 8y ago

Sorry, I'm a little confused here on the 8 recruiters. >The federal indictments name eight people in eight states who allegedly worked as recruiters for the school. All have been arrested and charged with conspiracy to commit visa fraud and harboring aliens for profit. They face a maximum sentence of five years in prison. So ICE employed recruiters, and is now prosecuting them for doing what they were told? A law enforcement agency hired people, required them to break the law (presumably under threat of dismissal), and then intends to jail them for it?

humantiy 8y ago
>So ICE employed recruiters The article looks to have made it sound like ICE employed them, but I don't believe that is the case. It seems more likely they (the recruiters) were acting independently getting international students to transfer to the fake school knowing it wasn't a legit school (hence the "pay to stay" statement) and helping them with that process while unaware it was actually setup by ICE.
- wuyelubo 8y ago
  This seems more plausible. From what I am reading and cross referencing it in other articles, ICE had no immediate relationships of any sort with the "recruiters". The "recruiters" were compensated by the "students", not the fake uni, or ICE.
zaroth 8y ago
This makes perfect sense if the recruiters knew they were running a fake university. If a drug dealer hires henchmen to sell their drugs, and under threat of dismissal tells them to move a certain amount of product, the henchmen are still guilty of a crime. If the kingpin is actually the FBI, everyone working for them is still going to jail.
- Dayshine 8y ago
  Except selling drugs is illegal, recruiting students isn't. Keep in mind their employer was in "The Department of Homeland Security’s list of certified schools". Their work was only illegal because their employer turned out to be "corrupt". And presumably the cover was strong enough that doing your due diligence on your new employer wouldn't raise any red flags. As an employee is it my responsibility to ensure that my day-to-day work hasn't been made illegal due to my employer's actions!?

TorKlingberg 8y ago

How is this not entrapment? Yes, the students knowingly signed up for a fake university and used it for visa application, but the fake university only existed because the government set it up. If people applying for student visas for fake universities is a real problem, why not just compare their applications with a list of real universities? Especially putting the fake uni on DHS’s list of certified schools. Is there a problem of fake unis getting on DHS's list? Otherwise the crime they committed (applying for a visa for a fake university certified by the DHS) would have been literally impossible if DHS/ICE didn't intentionally certify a fake uni.

onetimemanytime 8y ago

Trying to be cute, get press and promoted? ICE and everyone knows damn well where "illegals" are working. No need to spend money on such elaborate ruses to find them.